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4000 Dollar

Post Date: 2013-02-03

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ryan View Drop Down
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: 4000 Dollar
    Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 6:45pm
well i am torn between the Hailstorm and the Aventum.


Chassis Model:Special Deal Hot Seller - Black OPS HailStorm Edition
Exterior Finish:- Standard Factory Finish
Trim Accents:- Standard Factory Finish
Core Components
Processor:Intel Core i7 (Six-Core)
Motherboard:ASUS P9X79 PRO
System Memory:16GB DDR3 1600MHz Digital Storm Certified Performance Series (Highly Recommended) (Hand Tested)
Power Supply:1050W Corsair Pro Silver
Hard Drive Set 1:1x (120GB Solid State )
Hard Drive Set 2:1x 1TB Western
Optical Drive 1:ASUS Blu-Ray Player/DVD Writer (Play Blu-Ray and Burn DVDs) (Model: BC-12B1ST)
Internet Access:High Speed Network Port
Video Card(s):1x NVIDIA GeForce GTX 690 4GB (Includes PhysX)
Sound Card:Integrated Motherboard Audio
Extreme Cooling:H20: Stage 6: Sub-Zero LCS Dual Loop: CPU & Dual SLI/CrossFire Video Cards [+$710]
CPU Boost:Stage 2: Overclock CPU 4.5GHz to 4.8GHz
(also includes upgraded lighting and fans and tubes)

price: 4384

OR

Black OPS Aventum
Intel Core i7 3820 3.6GHz (Turbo Mode up to 3.8GHz) (Quad Core
ASUS Sabertooth X79
16GB DDR3 1600MHz
1050W Corsair Pro
1x (120GB Solid State
1x (1TB Western Digital Caviar
Blu-Ray Player/DVD Writer
1x NVIDIA GeForce GTX 690 4GB
Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System
Red Tubing with High-Performance Fluid (UV Lighting Reactive)
Chassis Airflow:Digital Storm Aventum Automatic Response to Excess-Heat System (ARES)
Internal Lighting:Digital Storm Aventum RGB LED Lighting System
Stage 2: Overclock CPU 4.5GHz to 4.8GHz

Price: 4429
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 7:52pm
also an important note =D id love someone to post
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  Quote bprat22 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 4:24am
Hi ryan... For purely performance per dollar, the Hailstorm wins. For less money you have a better cpu and 2 Hdds.     If with the Hailstorm you drop to the 3820 chip and single HDD then you pocket alot of money.

With the Aventim, you're paying for their flagship case with some very unique features that only the Aventum has. Depends on you and where you're willing to put the money.

The gtx 690...... I would go with sli gtx 680.    If the 690 dies and warranty doesn't cover it because of a power surge,etc. you are out $1000 and no 2nd card to fall back on.   Just me.

Hope this helps.

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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 8:42am
Noted what it really comes down too is the cooling stage 6 vs the aventum cooling first stage
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  Quote bprat22 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 8:47am
I'm not sure of the difference between the two cooling systems.  Both get the job done.
 That would be a great  question for DS.
 
 
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 10:38am
Its easy to see thats the bottom line the main case is cool but it needs to beat out the hailstorms stage 6




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  Quote Asangard Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 12:41pm
Hi ryan,
 
The Aventum uses a dual loop system with 3 - 480mm radiators.  This is avaliable in 2 versions.  One to cool the CPU & GPUs and the other to cool the CPU, GPUs and chipset.
 
The Hailstorm stage 6 uses a dual loop system with 1 - 240mm radiator and 1 - 360 mm radiator.  The stage 6 also is available in the same 2 version.  CPU & GPUs cooling or CPU, GPUs and chipset cooling.
 
The Aventum cooling is more robust with more and larger radiators.
 
I hope this helps
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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 3:43pm
I would agree with bprat on this competition... Hailstorm is the smarter of the two builds.     

You could use 2 X SLI 680 Classified 4 gb cards and be far better off than a single 690, which equates to 2 x 680 2 gb.     

Hailstorms Corsair 800D is a big and roomy case at 24" x 24" x 9"....
From the photos you don't realize how much larger the Aventums jumbo case is...30" x 26" x 10"....!              

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  Quote joguco2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 4:21pm
Take the Hailstorm if you want to upgrade another stuff like cpu, ssd or memory. I have one and it is amazing, pure solid and big enough to expand it for the future.

Aventum is better but more expensive. (More fans, bigger, Cryo tech cooling, more space, etc).

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  Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 5:25pm
If you simply want the best of the best, that's the Aventum. If you want the best value for your money, the HailStorm could be a good idea. The Aventum is mainly designed for budgets that are $5,000+.

The Aventum does have more powerful cooling options (including water) as it can take three massive 420mm radiators which use larger 140mm fans. You can also control all chassis fans and LED colors with the Aventum with our software.
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Asangard



Hi ryan,
 
The Aventum uses a dual loop system with 3 - 480mm radiators.  This is avaliable in 2 versions.  One to cool the CPU & GPUs and the other to cool the CPU, GPUs and chipset.
 
The Hailstorm stage 6 uses a dual loop system with 1 - 240mm radiator and 1 - 360 mm radiator.  The stage 6 also is available in the same 2 version.  CPU & GPUs cooling or CPU, GPUs and chipset cooling.
 
The Aventum cooling is more robust with more and larger radiators.
 
I hope this helps


thanks everyone so far!   thanks asangard.. but its more like

Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU Only
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU + Video Cards [+$549]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU + Video Cards + Chipset [+$649]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System: CPU Only [+$1,406]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System for CPU and Liquid Cooling for Video Cards [+$2,077]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System for CPU and Liquid Cooling for Video Cards + Chipset [+$2,177]

The cheapest option on this would be my pick. also you need to factor in the   13 fans with the(ARES)system (the cases revolutionary cooling being its selling point)

vs

Hailstorms
H20: Stage 6: Sub-Zero LCS Dual Loop: CPU & Dual SLI/CrossFire Video Cards [+$740]
(also i dont see where it says it has loops to cool the Chipset)

on the g - cards.. the single 690 is kinda flashy. less heat takes one less slot and requires less power then sli 680s
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ryan View Drop Down
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Alex

If you simply want the best of the best, that's the Aventum. If you want the best value for your money, the HailStorm could be a good idea. The Aventum is mainly designed for budgets that are $5,000+.

The Aventum does have more powerful cooling options (including water) as it can take three massive 420mm radiators which use larger 140mm fans. You can also control all chassis fans and LED colors with the Aventum with our software.


Thanks =D haha   but this is the 4000-5000$ build. I guess the point is.

Pull the trigger and get the Aventum you only downgrad the motherboard rolling Sabertooth X79 (which the hailstorms build has) and roll a quad core.

or

hailstorm 6core, H20: Stage 6: Sub-Zero LCS..

hardware to hardware the systems match up. so i dont see a real drop of value to buy into the aventum... besides the processor.. that is unless your saying the cooling is also a downgrade (if you are suggesting the aventums revolutionary cooling on the first option is indeed outbeat by the Hailstorm stage 6.

Edited by ryan - 04 Feb 2013 at 6:49pm
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  Quote tju76 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 7:50pm
Both cases will use the same cooling blocks etc the only difference is the amount of rads more rads equals more noise not lower temps I am running an overclocked 3820 and overclocked 680s in the hailstorm and temps are no issue. From posts I have seen reviews I have read you will not have any lower temps using the aventum over the hailstorm so get the better hardware in the hailstorm and don't pay a stupid premium for unused radiators and flashy light controller. People with the need for that much radiator space are running 4 way sli cards chipset and cpu and the temperature differences are minimal. I would rather have better components then 1-3 degrees lower temps I'm on my phone so not posting links
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  Quote tju76 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 7:53pm
Its not revolutionary cooling I guarantee they are using thin xspc rads in the aventum same as the hailstorm. If you are concerned with such trivial things as temp differences have Ds special order some thick rads but again as I have said you are fine without
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 8:19pm
thankyou for the pic and understanding me


well its not just that i wanted to gain performance rather i didnt want too lose it if i decided on the aventum.

Edited by ryan - 04 Feb 2013 at 8:40pm
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  Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 9:28pm
Welcome to the Aventum club!
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  Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 9:35pm
I just wanted to give a few points on the key advantages of getting an Aventum versus the HailStorm:

- Support for three 420mm radiators versus a single triple radiator at the top of the HailStorm (unless we do some heavy modding to add a 240mm towards the bottom on the HailStorm).

- Bottom airflow chamber design which pumps all of the heat from the main liquid loop out the back via exhaust vent.

- Airflow chamber allows us to draw cool air in from both sides at the bottom of the system, cool the radiators, and shoot the heat out, never letting it into the heart of the system and where all of your components are. The HailStorm can either draw air in from the top for the 360mm radiator and pump that heat into the system or use the warmer air that is already inside the system and use that to cool the radiators and then out of the system.

- Automated fan regulation with our custom control module. It reads temperatures in five thermal zones and adjusts chassis fan speeds accordingly.

- Aventum software allows you to customize LED lighting to your style and control all Aventum chassis fans with a single mouse click from silent to extreme fan profiles.

- Aventum is larger than the HailStorm and allows for extreme hardware configurations.

- Aventum supports up to two power supplies out of the box for future upgradability.

That's the major items.
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Alex

I just wanted to give a few points on the key advantages of getting an Aventum versus the HailStorm:

- Support for three 420mm radiators versus a single triple radiator at the top of the HailStorm (unless we do some heavy modding to add a 240mm towards the bottom on the HailStorm).

- Bottom airflow chamber design which pumps all of the heat from the main liquid loop out the back via exhaust vent.

- Airflow chamber allows us to draw cool air in from both sides at the bottom of the system, cool the radiators, and shoot the heat out, never letting it into the heart of the system and where all of your components are. The HailStorm can either draw air in from the top for the 360mm radiator and pump that heat into the system or use the warmer air that is already inside the system and use that to cool the radiators and then out of the system.

- Automated fan regulation with our custom control module. It reads temperatures in five thermal zones and adjusts chassis fan speeds accordingly.

- Aventum software allows you to customize LED lighting to your style and control all Aventum chassis fans with a single mouse click from silent to extreme fan profiles.

- Aventum is larger than the HailStorm and allows for extreme hardware configurations.

- Aventum supports up to two power supplies out of the box for future upgradability.

That's the major items.



Thank you for the feedback and excellent points.

Bottom line (From customer standpoint)

- The Aventum -

screams next gen and excellence. without a doubt friends would be impressed by its eyecandy! its really something any geek could show off. also its LED control's and automatic fan regulation and innovation are great selling points. As far as its price Im trying to lowball the Level One build to afford it even while doing this its still overkill for most buyers by many means so it makes a very attractive option.

-The hailstorm-

Its a Powerhouse and with the level 3 option its upgradeability for my price range is very appealing. its cooling options are definite top of the line and also not hard on the eyes.   

For some this would be an easy decision... Extra Power. or Extra Computer sexyness



Edited by ryan - 04 Feb 2013 at 10:56pm
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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 11:05pm
If the point of your build is power & performance using your rig in games & applications, you will have all the performance you need at excellent temps with the Stage 6 Hailstorm build.     Use the excellent Sabertooth mobo in Hailstorm and you get Asus Thermal Radar for on board temp monitoring & fan control..   You can add LED lights in the case yourself for about $35.    The Corsair 800D chasis has many years of fans here in the forums...a long dependable track record as a solid choice with LCS.

If this is more about putting that cash towards state of the art cooling and a unique DS custom designed monster chasis... Aventum certainly has lots of Extreme bells & whistles going for it.    Aventum is still relatively new and it has many big fans here in the DS forums as well.

In the end it's your money ryan.    Whatever you choose, you will need to be happy with your choice!   
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  Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 11:40pm
Definitely. When you're spending anything more than $3,000+ you're already paying for the best of the best. When you're at $4,000+ and you have choices like an Aventum, it becomes quite attractive.

It's like car brands, you could get a Lexus, but, if your budget allows, get that Lamborghini or Ferrari.
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  Quote Asangard Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 6:50am
Originally posted by ryan

 
thanks everyone so far!   thanks asangard.. but its more like

Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU Only
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU + Video Cards [+$549]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU + Video Cards + Chipset [+$649]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System: CPU Only [+$1,406]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System for CPU and Liquid Cooling for Video Cards [+$2,077]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System for CPU and Liquid Cooling for Video Cards + Chipset [+$2,177]

The cheapest option on this would be my pick. also you need to factor in the   13 fans with the(ARES)system (the cases revolutionary cooling being its selling point)

vs

Hailstorms
H20: Stage 6: Sub-Zero LCS Dual Loop: CPU & Dual SLI/CrossFire Video Cards [+$740]
(also i dont see where it says it has loops to cool the Chipset)

on the g - cards.. the single 690 is kinda flashy. less heat takes one less slot and requires less power then sli 680s
 
Hi ryan,
 
You asked to compare Aventum's cooling to the Hailstorm's stage 6 that's why I left off the CPU only option and the Cryo-TEC System options.  I listed the options that were most like the Hailstorm's.
 
To see the the 2nd Hailstorm option that includes the chipset you need to select the expert mode.  Once you click on expert mode you will see a lot more options in all catagories.
 
Once again I hope this helps,
 
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Therefore, the 1st step on the Holy Warrior path,
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  Quote tju76 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by Alex

I just wanted to give a few points on the key advantages of getting an Aventum versus the HailStorm:

- Support for three 420mm radiators versus a single triple radiator at the top of the HailStorm (unless we do some heavy modding to add a 240mm towards the bottom on the HailStorm).

- Bottom airflow chamber design which pumps all of the heat from the main liquid loop out the back via exhaust vent.

- Airflow chamber allows us to draw cool air in from both sides at the bottom of the system, cool the radiators, and shoot the heat out, never letting it into the heart of the system and where all of your components are. The HailStorm can either draw air in from the top for the 360mm radiator and pump that heat into the system or use the warmer air that is already inside the system and use that to cool the radiators and then out of the system.

- Automated fan regulation with our custom control module. It reads temperatures in five thermal zones and adjusts chassis fan speeds accordingly.

- Aventum software allows you to customize LED lighting to your style and control all Aventum chassis fans with a single mouse click from silent to extreme fan profiles.

- Aventum is larger than the HailStorm and allows for extreme hardware configurations.

- Aventum supports up to two power supplies out of the box for future upgradability.

That's the major items.


First off the point about the hailstorm needing "heavy nodding" to fit more then a single 360 is total garbage. Alex you come off as saying that the hailstorm only supports one 360 radiator when it fits a 240 in the bottom with no mod needed what so ever, the op will be fine with the hailstorm and stage 6 cooling. There is no need for a second power supply unless your running dual cpu 4 way sli the whole compartmentalized cooling features in cases like the aventum and hailstorm have been shown to not offer much in real world value especially when talking about fully liquid cooled setups
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  Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 1:24pm
I rather not get into a debate over this, I understand you have your views and everyone else does as well.

From our experience, there is a definitely a big difference in terms of cooling potential with the HailStorm and Aventum, just look at the number of options.

The 800D does not support a 240mm without modding at the bottom, only a 120mm radiator. That alone is still either pumping heat into the system or using the heat from the system and shooting it out from the bottom. Here is an image for Corsair showing this: http://www.corsair.com/en/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/0/800d_newdoor-wcovers.png
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  Quote Tidgxor Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by tju76

The whole compartmentalized cooling features in cases like the aventum and hailstorm have been shown to not offer much in real world value especially when talking about fully liquid cooled setups


I'd be interested in seeing the tests you're referring to. This is something I've been curious about.


Edited by Tidgxor - 05 Feb 2013 at 1:25pm
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  Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 1:31pm
I'll also let the team know, in a product overview video of the Aventum, we'll do a comparison.
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Asangard


Originally posted by ryan

  thanks everyone so far!   thanks asangard.. but its more like

Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU Only
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU + Video Cards [+$549]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Liquid Cooling System: CPU + Video Cards + Chipset [+$649]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System: CPU Only [+$1,406]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System for CPU and Liquid Cooling for Video Cards [+$2,077]
More Info
Cooling Performance
Digital Storm Aventum Cryo-TEC System for CPU and Liquid Cooling for Video Cards + Chipset [+$2,177]

The cheapest option on this would be my pick. also you need to factor in the   13 fans with the(ARES)system (the cases revolutionary cooling being its selling point)

vs

Hailstorms
H20: Stage 6: Sub-Zero LCS Dual Loop: CPU & Dual SLI/CrossFire Video Cards [+$740]
(also i dont see where it says it has loops to cool the Chipset)

on the g - cards.. the single 690 is kinda flashy. less heat takes one less slot and requires less power then sli 680s

 
Hi ryan,
 
You asked to compare Aventum's cooling to the Hailstorm's stage 6 that's why I left off the CPU only option and the Cryo-TEC System options.  I listed the options that were most like the Hailstorm's.
 
To see the the 2nd Hailstorm option that includes the chipset you need to select the expert mode.  Once you click on expert mode you will see a lot more options in all catagories.
 
Once again I hope this helps,
 


OH snap there you go hahah thank you [expert mode] *hand smacks Head*
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  Quote tju76 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Tidgxor



Originally posted by tju76

The whole compartmentalized cooling features in cases like the aventum and hailstorm have been shown to not offer much in real world value especially when talking about fully liquid cooled setups
I'd be interested in seeing the tests you're referring to. This is something I've been curious about.


When I have time I would be more than happy too
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  Quote tju76 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Alex

I rather not get into a debate over this, I understand you have your views and everyone else does as well.

From our experience, there is a definitely a big difference in terms of cooling potential with the HailStorm and Aventum, just look at the number of options.

The 800D does not support a 240mm without modding at the bottom, only a 120mm radiator. That alone is still either pumping heat into the system or using the heat from the system and shooting it out from the bottom. Here is an image for Corsair showing this: http://www.corsair.com/en/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/0/800d_newdoor-wcovers.png


The only moding needed is to screw out the hdd bay cover the thing that would hide hdd cables from being seen if the bottom racks were being filled with hdd besides unscrewing that the only other thing is drilling two holes so you can screw in the 240 rad. My point was you made it seem as this was an extreme request not a standard feature on all hailstorm builds with stage 6 cooling. I'm all for pushing your quote high tech revolutionary aventum I just want to provide the op with the facts the truth I will be glad to back up my statements with data on cooling and radiator needs
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  Quote tju76 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 4:50pm
And the radiator in the bottom blows the air on the backside of the mobo compartment and out the back of the case
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  Quote Tidgxor Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by tju76

When I have time I would be more than happy too


Cool, when you do just make another thread, don't want to much up ryan's thread too much. Big%20Smile
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Alex

Definitely. When you're spending anything more than $3,000+ you're already paying for the best of the best. When you're at $4,000+ and you have choices like an Aventum, it becomes quite attractive.

It's like car brands, you could get a Lexus, but, if your budget allows, get that Lamborghini or Ferrari.


Exactly. =)
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HockeyBuck View Drop Down
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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 7:03pm
Remember ryan....
Most of the folks here are not DS employees, and this forum is intended to offer you some opinions to consider and experienced guidance from Verified DS customers.   Most of us game to some degree, and I think there is a point where spending more money won't necessarily get you more performance in gaming....but it will get you lower temps or unusual design style or a just a rig look and color you desire.     We don't always agree, but none of us will tell you to overspend your budget for a rig.       

Both the Hailstorm and the Aventum are top line rigs that can do absolutely fantastic gaming, while keeping their heated components safely cooled and stable....plenty of users of each system here to attest to that fact.     

If you can afford it and you understand the positives and negatives of each build, just re-read the posts and think a bit before you decide.   Consider what happens after the parts warranty expires if you have a problem with something, could you fix it, and if components go out what will it cost to get back up and running.    DS will build it solid, whatever rig you decide is best for your needs and budget.   Good luck!    
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tju76 View Drop Down
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  Quote tju76 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 8:00pm
Exactly I just don't understand why you spend so much on a rig like 5k I mean I did but I have built computers in the past so my next rig will cost less then the Ds rig I have currently but more components. If your gaming on a single monitor a 5k rig is like driving a super car below the speed limit your not even maxing out the components. Personally If I was in your position I would just get 2 way or 3 way sli forget the liquid cooling bc in reality its all for show I know plenty of people that don't use it. Save the money invest in a nice multi monitor setup like 3 Dell u2412m get a high quality surround setup 5.1 7.1 which ever you prefer and immerse yourself in your games the monitors and surround system will long outlive the components in your computer
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ryan View Drop Down
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  Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 8:54pm
a big shout out 2 both of ya. =) i really like these forums with time passing by the date of my pc purchase draws near and every bit of input i consider valuable

Edited by ryan - 06 Feb 2013 at 8:59pm
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