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Post Date: 2010-08-04
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debugoz View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		  Quote debugoz Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: Graphics options
    Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 10:17am
So i have been thinking over and over again about a build, but I just can't seem to settle on a decision.

Choices
1. Crossfire 5870 + 1000w digital storm certified ps
2. 1 GTX 480 + 1250w enermax ps (buy another 480 in the future)

Are the ATI drivers really as bad as everyone makes out? The last thing I want is to have issues when upgrading drivers, I know my way around a computer, but really don't have time anymore to screw around for half a night trying to fix driver issues.

I'm also trying to decide between the HAF X and the assassin. I know most people here will tell me that the assassin is over priced compared to the HAF, but I love the way it looks. With crossfire or sli cards will the assassin be able to keep everything cool? I know the HAF has great airflow so should do the job. 

One last question. I'm partial to cpu water cooling, mainly because I hate the look of a giant heatsink blocking the whole window. Many have already said the asetek 240mm is not great, which I was a bit disappointed by cause it is a good price point and requires no maintenance. Anyway It seems to me that the assassin case can only fit a 120mm rad on the inside, this restricts me to the frostchill system, while the HAF can fit anything. What are peoples thoughts and experiences with the frostchill system?
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teaiewold View Drop Down
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Posts: 216 		  Quote teaiewold Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 10:29am
if you want to LC i wouldn't go with the assassin. it's designed for air cooling specifically and will do a great job of it. you wouldn't even need to LC.
 
on the vid cards most are going to say use one 480, then in a couple years just get the best single card that's out at the time instead of adding another 480. what resolution will you be playing at? if you will be staying below 1900x1200 then one 480 is fine. if you plan on going higher than that, then you will need to run two vid cards.
 
honestly you don't NEED to LC at all unless you are pushing wicked OC's, which i don't think you plan on doing.
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debugoz View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		  Quote debugoz Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 10:40am
Thanks for that. Your right I don't need a crazy overclock, LC is overkill. What about using the asetek 120mm in the assassin? I know I know the noctua is better, but will the asetek do the job with a 3.9-4.0 overclock on a i7 930?

my res will most likely be 1900x1080, which sounds like a single 480 will do me for now. I know a 750w power supply will handle that, but keeping a mind to the future is it best to go with a 1000w?
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!ender_ View Drop Down
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Posts: 4219 		  Quote !ender_ Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 11:22am
no, a 750w is really ok and should be for a while, i feel like the market backlash at the power draw from the fermis will push nvidia and ati to keep power efficiency higher on thier list of priorities, so for the next several years a single 750 is should be just fine
 
i also backup what was said about not adding a second 480 later... prices arent going down like some would expect, the mfgs/retailers are way ahead of you if you think that a year from now you will get a 480 for too much less than it is now, and even if it was down to 300, a couple years from now 480s will be as old as the 200 series cards are now, so not only will you not save that much money, youll spend too much money on outdated hardware when you could just replace it
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Posts: 2247 		  Quote Dragoonseal Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 12:03pm
When they came out 480s were $500, they were just on sale the other day at Newegg for $384 plus a free game. Currently they're back up to $430 plus a free game.

Some video card prices stagnate and never come down in price like they should, this is true, but so far the future outlook for 480 prices doesn't look too bad.
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JJJJ_Shabadoo View Drop Down
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Posts: 320 		  Quote JJJJ_Shabadoo Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 12:10pm
Just keep in mind that a single 480 won't let you run every game at max settings. Some newer games such as Metro 2033 are simply too demanding. At my resolution (1680x1050), turning everything to highest settings will cause my frame rate to dip into the 20's. Just Cause 2 dips into the low 30's with everything maxed out as will Crysis. If you don't mind playing with a few settings turned down, though, a single 480 should be ok.
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Dragoonseal View Drop Down
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Posts: 2247 		  Quote Dragoonseal Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by JJJJ_Shabadoo

Metro 2033

Turn off the advanced Depth of Field option. And/or turn down the AA settings.

If you haven't already, that is.
Lilim
Intel Core i7 920 @4.2GHz
HAF 932 - Dual SLI Nvidia GTX 480s
3x Intel X25-M G2 (80GB) SSD RAID0
R.I.P. Sinbad the cat (November 16, 1996 - April 18, 2011)
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JJJJ_Shabadoo View Drop Down
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Posts: 320 		  Quote JJJJ_Shabadoo Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 12:31pm
I have, just warning that everything at max won't run well with a single 480 (some members of the forums here tell people seeking config advice that a 480 will run anything at 1920x1080 or less at max settings with no problems, which is simply not true).
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!ender_ View Drop Down
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Posts: 4219 		  Quote !ender_ Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 1:07pm
all im saying is that if youre going to add anything "later" your money would be much better spent on a new card then doubling your outdated hardware
 
if its about saving money, you are better off just getting a 2nd 480 during one of the several sales per week and installing it yourself, at least you get to enjoy being ahead of the curve for a while instead of paying a little less later on to NOT catch up to the curve by picking up a 2nd 480
 
in my opinion, you cant beat a 750w + a 480 with the intention of replacing the 480 later on. you can sell the card for a good amount and get back up with the curve
this strategy will not put you as high in performance as 2x480s right now, to be sure, but its the most cost effective way to approach it in my opinion
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JJJJ_Shabadoo View Drop Down
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Posts: 320 		  Quote JJJJ_Shabadoo Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 1:11pm
/agreed
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debugoz View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		  Quote debugoz Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 1:16pm
Thanks for all the input guys.

I guess it is decision time.

As much as I would love 2 gtx 480 in sli, I'm not sure I will ever be able to justify the expense, so I am going to go with the 750w + 1 480 option.

Now as for cooling, the asetek 120mm is basically the corsair h50 right? It seems pretty popular on newegg, especially in the push + pull fan config. Do you think that will be good enough for a 3.8 - 4 ghz overclock? In the assassin case that is.
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Dragoonseal View Drop Down
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Posts: 2247 		  Quote Dragoonseal Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by debugoz

Do you think that will be good enough for a 3.8 - 4 ghz overclock? In the assassin case that is.

No. Or at least, DS won't push an overclock that far with one, you'll be over 80°C temps before that point.

It isn't the worst cooler in the world but it is still mostly just liquid cooling for the sake of saying it is liquid cooling. It's a great marketing ploy, because it preys on everyone who doesn't know better and assume all LCing is amazing and it is popular because of it, but the reality is that any good air coolers outperform it.

Just stick with either of the two Noctua air coolers.
Lilim
Intel Core i7 920 @4.2GHz
HAF 932 - Dual SLI Nvidia GTX 480s
3x Intel X25-M G2 (80GB) SSD RAID0
R.I.P. Sinbad the cat (November 16, 1996 - April 18, 2011)
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debugoz View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		  Quote debugoz Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 1:57pm
Ok I've been convinced, Noctua it is then.

Here is the final (probably) build.

Chassis Model: Special Deal Hot Seller - Black OPS Assassin Edition
Exterior Finish: - Standard Factory Finish
Trim Accents: - Standard Factory Finish
Processor: Intel Core i7 930 2.8GHz (Quad Core)
Motherboard: EVGA X58 3X SLI (Intel X58 Chipset)
System Memory: 6GB DDR3 1600MHz Digital Storm Certified Performance Series (Highly Recommended) (Hand Tested)
Power Supply: 750W Corsair TX (Dual SLI Compatible)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Hard Drive Set 1: Operating System: 1x (80GB Solid State (By: Intel) (Model: X25-M MLC Edition) (Extreme Performance)
Set 1 Raid Options: - No Thanks
Hard Drive Set 2: Multimedia\Data: 1x (500GB Western Digital (16MB Cache) (7200 RPM)
Hard Drive Set 3: Backup\Misc.: - No Thanks
Optical Drive 1: DVD-R/RW/CD-R/RW (DVD Writer 24x / CD-Writer 48x)
Optical Drive 2: - No Thanks
Internet Access: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Video Card: 1x NVIDIA GeForce GTX 480 1.5GB (Includes PhysX Technology) (EVGA Brand)
Add-on Card: - No Thanks
Sound Card: Integrated Motherboard Audio
Extreme Cooling: AIR: Stage 1: Noctua Dual 120mm Fans High Performance Cooler (Compatible With ONLY i7 Processors)
H20 Tube Color:- Not Applicable, I do not have a FrostChill or Sub-Zero LCS Cooling System Selected
Chassis Airflow: Upgrade Chassis With Zalman Performance Fans (Up to 6 Fans)
Internal Lighting: - No Thanks
Enhancements: - No Thanks
Chassis Mods: - No Thanks
Noise Reduction: - No Thanks
Boost Processor: FREE: Stage 1: Overclock the processor between 3.3GHz to 3.9GHz (Cooling Upgrade Recommended)
Boost Video Card: - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my video card(s)
Boost Memory: - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my memory
Boost OS: - No Thanks, Please do not tweak the services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium (64-Bit Edition)
Restore Kit: Digital Storm Specialized Recovery System (DVD Image Based)
Virus Protection: - No Thanks
Office: - No Thanks
Benchmarking: - No Thanks
Install/Test Game: FREE: Hot-selling game with a NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250 or above graphics card
Display: - No Thanks
Surge Shield: - No Thanks
Speakers: - No Thanks
Keyboard: - No Thanks
Mouse: - No Thanks
External Storage: - No Thanks
Exclusive T-Shirt: - No Thanks
Priority Build: - No Thanks, Ship Within 5-15 Business Days After Order Is Successfully Processed
Warranty: Life-time Expert Customer Care with 3 Year Limited Warranty 
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Posts: 2247 		  Quote Dragoonseal Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 2:09pm
Have I ever mentioned the Assassin is overpriced? The Assassin is overpriced. Disappointed

Unless you need the three extra JMicron SATA ports for something (you shouldn't), the EVGA x58 3X SLI doesn't offer you anything the EVGA x58 LE doesn't, so just stick to the LE.

Zalman upgraded fans are very loud, be sure you can live with the noise.
Lilim
Intel Core i7 920 @4.2GHz
HAF 932 - Dual SLI Nvidia GTX 480s
3x Intel X25-M G2 (80GB) SSD RAID0
R.I.P. Sinbad the cat (November 16, 1996 - April 18, 2011)
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!ender_ View Drop Down
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Posts: 4219 		  Quote !ender_ Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 2:25pm
man.. just kills me to see how much that assassin case is
 
honestly... for max gaming ability, or game ability... gamability... whatever
you could drop the case to a haf932
drop the SSD to an intel 40 (you didnt mention any photo/video editing, even if you did thats still a good amount of room)
drop the mobo to an LE or micro
drop the extra fan package (you need to do this anyway)
 
... if you did all that you would be within throwing distance of a 2nd gtx480, with no loss in performance elsewhere. you may not end up with the case you really wanted, but with what youve already saved by not going with liquid cooling.. if youre looking for a true gaming machine.....
 
just food for thought
 
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debugoz View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		  Quote debugoz Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 2:45pm
Ahhh your killing me, I thought I had it, I was so close .....

ok ok i need to think about this

the HAF X is ok I do like it so I could drop down to that.
fan package gone.
down to the LE motherboard, assuming I'm not missing out on too much.

the only one I'm not sure about is the ssd, 40gb seems a little small, how much room does win 7 take? I always feel it runs better with extra breathing room.

Even with all that I still don't think i can push the budget to 2 480's, I could accommodate 2 5870's though .... hmmm
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!ender_ View Drop Down
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Posts: 4219 		  Quote !ender_ Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 3:23pm
win 7 64 is 20gigs
what other productive (non gaming) programs, such as photoshop or sony vegas are you using?
 
SSDs are not similar to standard HDDs in the need for 50% or less use for max performance, i believe that dragoon said they can go as high as 90% storage capacity with no loss in performance
plus they are really only going to benefit you with specific programs
 
careful with swtiching to ati, im an nvidia fanboy to be sure, but even still there has been a lot of bad feedback from driver issues with them, what price range are you hoping to stay in?
 
again im just trying to keep you aware of your options, if sli is out of the price range then its out of the price range, i would just hate to see you get 1 480 and a lot of junk you dont need when you could have gotten 2
 


Edited by !ender_ - 04 Aug 2010 at 3:34pm
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Posts: 2312 		  Quote ablahblah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 3:31pm
the assassin case is the expensive...well...because (hopefully this doesn't get removed) it's been branded by DS. Branded stuff makes it so the brander can raise the price as it now has their brand on it. You know how you can go to a store and find a nice Calvin Klein shirt, and find another generic shirt WITHOUT the brand for maybe $10 or $20 cheaper? Exactly.

The FT02 in real life costs $239.

If you want FT02 functionality, get the unbranded Raven 2, the FT02 is basically a repackaged Raven 2. However, Raven cases are meant to kick butt in air cooling. You can liquid cool them even up to stage 6 using some mods (DS uses the external radiator mount package from the Raven 1, drilling some custom holes into the back in the process), but it's putting the internal air systems to waste.
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Posts: 247 		  Quote SemperFuzz Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 4:14pm
And get the Noctua 14 it is far superior and only a little more.  Your SSD is a little small i am at 80GB right now with 4 games and OS and about 100 full size pics.  I am getting the SSD 160GB due to input on these forums and the Noctua 14.
 
Keep it simple and single.  I have had 3 computers with LC and SLI and now i am going with all Air HAF-X.  Too many issues and i am not an OC'er just like the looks but the cost is crazy.  Good luck
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debugoz View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		  Quote debugoz Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 4:27pm
Interesting point about the Raven 2, I hadn't even see that case.

I'd like to stay under $2600, but the lower the better obviously. ATI's driver issues really put me off, so I probably will stick with at least a single 480.

Thanks for all the help guys, you have certainly opened my eyes to all the different options. Lets hope I can make a decision before the year is out Big%20Smile
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Posts: 4219 		  Quote !ender_ Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 4:35pm
im not sure what you mean about the noctua 14, its not even significantly better, especially not for the weight you put on the mobo and the $55 extra you pay without even adding a 3rd fan which is the only way you would see even noticible gains over the u12p
 
even if that wasnt the case, you can still get over 4.0ghz on a u12p, so theres still no reason or justification for the noctua 14 imo
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