FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

High end, super quiet, Velox configuration

Post Date: 2021-07-04

 Post Reply Post Reply
Page  12>
Author
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: High end, super quiet, Velox configuration
    Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 3:46am
What do you guys think about this configuration?

Budget:
The sky is the limit

Expectations:
I would like the highest frame rates possible on modern games, using ultra settings, and running on a 38” ultra wide monitor. I might upgrade the monitor in the future if higher resolution ultra wides become available. I expect this build to last me 3-5 years, so I want to go all in on performance.

Usage:
Gaming only. No other software at all.

Special Needs:
Very low noise. I want this to be super quiet.

Saved Ticket #: 3966233

Specifications:
Chassis Model: Digital Storm Velox
Processor: Intel Core i9-11900K (5.3 GHz Turbo) (16-Thread) (8-Core) 3.5 GHz (Rocket Lake)
Motherboard: ASUS Prime Z590-P / MSI Z590-A Pro (Intel Z590 Chipset) (Up to 2x PCI-E Devices) (No SLI Support)
System Memory: 32GB DDR4 3200MHz Digital Storm Performance Series
Power Supply: 850W Digital Storm Performance Series (Modular) (80 Plus Gold)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Optical Drive: - No Thanks
Storage Set 1: 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 980 PRO) (NVM Express)
Storage Set 2: - No Thanks
Storage Set 3: - No Thanks
RAID Config: - No Thanks
RAID Card: - No Thanks
Internet Access: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Graphics Card(s): 1x GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12GB (VR Ready)
Sound Card: Integrated Motherboard Audio
HPC Processor: - No Thanks
Extreme Cooling: H20: HydroLux PRO: Exotic Custom Cooling System (1x Graphics Card + CPU)
HydroLux Tubing Style: Flexible Tubing (Requires HydroLux Liquid Cooling System)
HydroLux Fluid Color: Red Flexible Tubing + Clear Fluid (Requires HydroLux Liquid Cooling System)
Chassis Fans: Standard Factory Chassis Fans
Internal Lighting: Remote Controlled Advanced LED Lighting System (Multiple RGB Color Modes)
Airflow Control: Digital Storm Thermal Management Control Board & Software
Boost Processor: Stage 2: Overclock CPU - Up to 5.1GHz on All CPU Cores

And I have a few questions:

• Would a more expensive motherboard improve performance at all?
• Would faster memory improve performance at all?
• Would the Corsair RGB fans be more quiet?
• Is there anything here that it just way too much overkill?
• Is the Digital Storm thermal management control board worth it?

Thanks so much for your help.

Edited by JamesAstro - 04 Jul 2021 at 3:48am
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
Cretae View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Online Status: Online
Posts: 5843
  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 4:52am
IMHO, it's mostly a waste of money at this point in time. You would be at least as well off just replacing the mobo and CPU. Then you could add a Samsung 980 at your leisure. You could move into an RTX 3090 when the prices come down, or wait about a year for the next gen. I don't see how you will be happier with a 3080 Ti than with 2x 2080 Tis for such a short timeframe.

Here is an opinion I found on reddit:

"Sli is dope. If you use it with other programs such as any 3d renderer or VFX programs and not just game with it, it is totally worth it. You can split the workload and have flexibility anytime you want rather than buying one graphic card... on the game side, GTA, Warzone, Battlefield, Witcher 3, Farcry 5, For Honor, are just some of the games that support it. There is a third-party app that you can download and it will trick your computer into thinking SLi needs to be used and you can see an increase in Fps during any non-SLI game. Currently, I have one rig with 2 x 2080ti and another with only one 3080."

I think it's clear which rig he prefers.

If your SLI isn't performing, it's a different story, but is a 3080 Ti gonna get you where you want to be over the long haul? You might be wanting to upgrade that anyway, so why not just be patient until it makes better sense. The card costs about $2500 all by itself.      (over 2K on top of the price of the 1650 which is about $500!)

On the rig you configured, a better mobo will squeeze a few more frames, but the only options for intel are a waste of $$ for the gain. Faster RAM will be marginally better.

The Corsair fans would be a an upgrade, but again, marginal. The Corsair Commander Pro will allow you control of the fans for speed and colors. I don't know if the DS thermal management does a whole lot you need.

IMHO the whole upgrade is not a great idea just because the timing is so far off. You could upgrade to a better experience for now for under $1000. An 11700K is only 2% off the 11900k but will save ~$150, and you could get faster RAM and a better mobo in the bargain for below that cost. In just a year, you would have such better options available.

Some things to think about, at least.
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 12:29pm
Hmm, those are some good points that I need to think about.

My main reason for upgrading is that I’ve mostly given up on SLI. It just causes too many problems. My latest bad experience was with Shadow of the Tomb Raider. It claims to support SLI, and there is no doubt that the frame rate jumps dramatically when it’s enabled. However, it causes a lot of stuttering and glitching.

The previous versions of Tomb Raider do support SLI really well, but it took each of them many months after release to support it without glitching. This sort of thing seems to happen a lot. A game will come out without SLI support, add a buggy version of it later, and then finally fix it many months after release. It’s just an annoyance that I’m tiring of.

I was also considering upgrading the mobo and CPU, and keeping my 2080 Ti’s. However, this is all liquid cooled, and I’m not sure that I want to dismantle it all to replace a few pieces, and then later do it all again when I upgrade the video cards. Plus, I don’t have any experience installing a mobo, CPU, or liquid cooling. I also don’t have any experience with over-clocking. It’s a little more than I really want to get into.

Another thing I considered was asking DS to upgrade my Aventum with a new mobo, CPU, and 3080 Ti. However, they don’t sell graphics cards separately. You can only get one if you buy a brand new system.

I suppose I could ask DS to upgrade my mobo, CPU, and memory. Hmm…now that does seem intriguing. I could have them perform that upgrade, and then have them upgrade the video cards once they become readily available. The only downside there is that they don’t provide a warranty for upgrades. If the overclocking had an issue, then it would be up to me to deal with it.

Uggh. This is such a terrible time to deal with upgrades. It makes my brain hurt. This all started when my liquid cooling system developed a leak several months ago. I managed to stop the leak by tightening a screw on one of the fittings. However, it still leaks about once every 2 months, and I have to adjust it again. I’m worried that one day it’ll fail completely, and soak my carpet in red dye.

I’ve even considered getting an air-cooled system to avoid these problems in the future, but I think the noise would drive me crazy. I recently saw the Corsair ONE A200, and was thinking about going that route for the simplicity, but that machine has too many compromises, has thermal throttling, and only comes with a RTX 3080.

Anyway, I really appreciate your input. I’m going to keep pondering many details of what you said, and also look into that 3rd party app that makes SLI work with more games.

Thanks so much for your help.

James
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
fwfdfireman View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 18 Aug 2020
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 310
  Quote fwfdfireman Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 4:23pm
I would do not waste any time with SLi anymore.
The guy in charge of the SLi stuff at nVidia left, and nVidia stated they will no longer support it. If that is the case, what game developer is going to invest all the extra cost and time into a game so it can have something that is no longer supported.

Video rendering? I did lots of 1080 and 1440p vids of my motorcycle rides and then encoded 20 min. clips for my YouTube channel. Also would do a longer version of the ride video and burn a 2 1/2-3 hr. blu-ray disc. I never noticed any big improvement in rendering time with SLi.

All the above has led me to NOT spec this Velox with SLi. Running a single RTX 3080 Asus TUF Gaming card and love it. Using it on an MSI 34" 1440p monitor.

It's up to you on SLi, I just my reasons for not running double cards anymore. If I was powering up 3-4 monitors like some folks I know, then yeah, multiple cards but still not in SLi.

Cretae knows this stuff and I would strongly urge you to consider seriously what he has laid out for you.

MBs, I would go at least a step up from the low tier MB for better handling of heat. Beyond that in selection is only if you are going to do some serious overclocking.

Re-think your water cooling needs. The Velox has the best airflow and I am just running DS's AIO 240mm sealed unit and I do not hear this PC run at normal or mid temps. Now if I am running a AAA game my ASUS card cranks all three fans up, plus I have the case fans set a tad higher in rpm than the "Quiet" in my Corsair iCue software, I will hear the PC but is not loud, you just hear it. Running MSI Afterburner to check on temps, if I remember correctly, I never got over 65c on the CPU or GPU.

Best of luck.

Edited by fwfdfireman - 04 Jul 2021 at 4:26pm
Old Gamers Never Die!
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 4:47pm
Thanks for your input fwfdfireman. I liked hearing your comments about how the Velox is reasonably quiet with air cooling. I really love my quiet liquid cooled Aventum, but it’s just too much of an annoyance when dealing with upgrades. I think I’ll explore a Velox config with air cooling.

Back when I got my Aventum I lived alone, so I always used speakers when playing games, and having a silent PC was a high priority.. Now that my girlfriend is living with me, I use headphones almost exclusively when gaming. I guess having a silent PC shouldn’t be such a high priority for me now.

Edited by JamesAstro - 04 Jul 2021 at 4:51pm
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
Clay View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 518
  Quote Clay Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 5:35pm
Good stuff
I9 10900K
MSI Z490-A Pro MoBo
FTX 2070 Super
16G [email protected]
Razor Keyboard and Mouse
1TB SSD 4TB HDD
27" ASUS Monitor 144hz
Corsair Void Wireless Headset
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 6:20pm
Here is my latest configuration based on some of the discussions above. I upgraded the motherboard, increased the RAM speed, changed the liquid cooling on the CPU, and removed liquid cooling on the GPU. Let me know if you have any additional suggestions. :)

Specifications:
Chassis Model: Digital Storm Velox
Processor: Intel Core i9-11900K (5.3 GHz Turbo) (16-Thread) (8-Core) 3.5 GHz
Motherboard: ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero (Wi-Fi) (Intel Z590 Chipset) (Up to 3x PCI-E Devices)
System Memory: 32GB DDR4 3600MHz G.Skill TridentZ (RGB Light Bar)
Power Supply: 850W Digital Storm Performance Series (Modular) (80 Plus Gold)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Optical Drive: - No Thanks
Storage Set 1: 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 980 PRO) (NVM Express)
Storage Set 2: - No Thanks <br><strong></strong>
Storage Set 3: - No Thanks
RAID Config: - No Thanks
RAID Card: - No Thanks
Internet Access: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Graphics Card(s): 1x GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12GB (VR Ready)
HPC Processor: - No Thanks
Extreme Cooling: H20: Stage 2: Digital Storm Vortex Liquid CPU Cooler (Dual Fan)
Chassis Fans: Standard Factory Chassis Fans
Airflow Control: Digital Storm Thermal Management Control Board & Software
Boost Processor: Stage 2: Overclock CPU - Up to 5.1GHz on All CPU Cores
Boost Graphics Card(s): - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my video card(s)
Boost OS: - No Thanks, Please do not tweak the services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home (64-Bit)
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
Cretae View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Online Status: Online
Posts: 5843
  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 7:32pm
Since your 2080 Tis are a bust, I guess you're impatient for better performance. At least you'll be able to sell them to help cut your costs.

It's pretty pointless to overclock IMHO. The proc will spin up to 5.3 GHz when it really needs to. Having it run at 5.1 at idle and all the time will just make it run hotter than necessary and potentially shorten lifespan. Overclocking is pretty much limited to multi-core productivity these days. The latest CPUs are overpowered for just gaming, and turbo is rarely needed, but available. The GPU does almost all the grunt work.

I don't think the thermal management is necessary if you don't overclock. You can set fan profiles in your BIOS without it.
Back to Top
fwfdfireman View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 18 Aug 2020
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 310
  Quote fwfdfireman Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 10:45am
Just wanted to clarify. My Velox does have water cooling for the CPU. Like I said, I spec'd it with the DS 240mm radiator sealed unit. No refilling. Had an open loop system before and no benefit other than looks and extra money.

I strongly suspect that air cooling will do you just fine in the Velox, my only concern would be the cpu air cooler causing damage during shipping because of the weight of the thing. Heck, mine was damaged during shipping but DS took care of me with their RMA process.

Edited by fwfdfireman - 05 Jul 2021 at 10:45am
Old Gamers Never Die!
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 11:57am
Oh yes, I noticed that you mentioned having a sealed liquid cooler. After reading what you read earlier, that's definitely what I will order! :)

Originally posted by fwfdfireman

Just wanted to clarify. My Velox does have water cooling for the CPU. Like I said, I spec'd it with the DS 240mm radiator sealed unit. No refilling. Had an open loop system before and no benefit other than looks and extra money.

I strongly suspect that air cooling will do you just fine in the Velox, my only concern would be the cpu air cooler causing damage during shipping because of the weight of the thing. Heck, mine was damaged during shipping but DS took care of me with their RMA process.
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 12:03pm
Thank you once again Cretae. Your suggestions are really helping me out. After reading what you said about overclocking, I went looking for benchmarks online. Dang, you aren't kidding! Overclocking the CPU really doesn't help game performance, and it drastically increases power usage and temperatures. I'm going with your suggestion, and skipping the overclocking.

That's also good to know about skipping the thermal management. I didn't even realize that fan profiles could be set in the BIOS. Yeah...I'm somewhat of a BIOS newbie. :) Do all the motherboards support that? If so, then I'll just do that. The simpler my system is the better.

Thanks again!

Originally posted by Cretae

Since your 2080 Tis are a bust, I guess you're impatient for better performance. At least you'll be able to sell them to help cut your costs.

It's pretty pointless to overclock IMHO. The proc will spin up to 5.3 GHz when it really needs to. Having it run at 5.1 at idle and all the time will just make it run hotter than necessary and potentially shorten lifespan. Overclocking is pretty much limited to multi-core productivity these days. The latest CPUs are overpowered for just gaming, and turbo is rarely needed, but available. The GPU does almost all the grunt work.

I don't think the thermal management is necessary if you don't overclock. You can set fan profiles in your BIOS without it.
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 12:25pm
Here's my latest configuration. I made a few changes:

• Removed CPU overclocking
• Removed airflow control
• Switched to RGB fans

Does anyone have thoughts on the Cooler Master MasterFan Halo RGB Fans? I just read a couple of reviews online, and people mostly seem to like them. However, they don't get the highest ratings for airflow. I wonder how they compare to the standard DS fans?

Thanks again for your suggestions. You guys a really helping me make sense of all the options.

Specifications:
Chassis Model: Digital Storm Velox
Exterior Finish: - Standard Factory Finish
Trim Accents: - Standard Factory Finish
Processor: Intel Core i9-11900K (5.3 GHz Turbo) (16-Thread) (8-Core) 3.5 GHz (Rocket Lake)
Motherboard: ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero (Wi-Fi) (Intel Z590 Chipset) (Up to 3x PCI-E Devices)
System Memory: 32GB DDR4 3600MHz G.Skill TridentZ (RGB Light Bar)
Power Supply: 850W Digital Storm Performance Series (Modular) (80 Plus Gold)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Optical Drive: - No Thanks
Storage Set 1: 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 980 PRO) (NVM Express)
Storage Set 2: - No Thanks
Storage Set 3: - No Thanks
RAID Config: - No Thanks
RAID Card: - No Thanks
Internet Access: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Graphics Card(s): 1x GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12GB (VR Ready)
Sound Card: Integrated Motherboard Audio
HPC Processor: - No Thanks
Extreme Cooling: H20: Stage 2: Digital Storm Vortex Liquid CPU Cooler (Dual Fan) (Fully Sealed + No Maintenance)
HydroLux Tubing Style: - Not Applicable, I do not have a custom HydroLux liquid cooling system selected
HydroLux Fluid Color: - Not Applicable, I do not have a custom HydroLux liquid cooling system selected
Cable Management: Exotic Cable Management - Red - (Cable Combs with Custom Color Sleeved Extension Cables)
Chassis Fans: Cooler Master MasterFan Halo (RGB Fans) (Remote Control Only)
Internal Lighting: Remote Controlled Advanced LED Lighting System (Multiple RGB Color Modes)
Airflow Control: - No Thanks
Chassis Mods: - No Thanks
Noise Reduction: - No Thanks
LaserMark: - No Thanks
Boost Processor: Stock Factory Turbo Boost Advanced Automatic Overclocking
Boost Graphics Card(s): - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my video card(s)
Boost OS: - No Thanks, Please do not tweak the services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home (64-Bit)

Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
MrCheetah View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 09 Mar 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 184
  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 12:36pm
Some good advice thus far. I agree with forgetting about SLI -- NVLink is worthwhile but only in a few areas --, the medium motherboard upgrade, and if you're willing to wait, some prices will certainly improve -- although I'm not quite as optimistic as some of the YouTubers.

I'll also back the recommendation to forget about manual CPU overclocking. Unless you're seeking benchmark bragging rights, it isn't necessary nowadays.

What Is Intel® Turbo Boost Technology?

For an example, I have a new rig with an AIO liquid cooled 11700K. When doing some of my own initial stress testing and so forth, I noticed the CPU was holding at ~4.8GHz on all eight cores during [email protected] processing. In my opinion, that's not bad. Per unit performance will vary, of course.

Edited by MrCheetah - 05 Jul 2021 at 1:00pm
"White lightning": be quiet 500DX white, Asus ROG Strix Z590-E Gaming, Intel Core i7 11700K, 64GB HyperX Fury, EVGA FTW3 Ultra RTX 3090, 2TB WD_Black SN850, Corsair iCue H150i Elite Capellix white
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 12:48pm
Now I'm pondering my CPU choice. It seems like most people have an unfavorable view of the Intel Core i9-11900K. But then I see benchmarks like the one shown in the attached image, and it looks like the fastest chip for gaming.

If I'm only using my PC for gaming, then is the i9-11900K the best choice?

Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
MrCheetah View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 09 Mar 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 184
  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by JamesAstro

That's also good to know about skipping the thermal management. I didn't even realize that fan profiles could be set in the BIOS. Yeah...I'm somewhat of a BIOS newbie. :) Do all the motherboards support that? If so, then I'll just do that. The simpler my system is the better.

There's an overview of BIOS features in Chapter 3 (sections 3.1 and 3.2)

ROG Maximus XIII Hero User Manual

I couldn't say offhand as I typically avoid tinkering with the BIOS. Unless I have a specific reason and confident on how to achieve the goal, I find making adjustments tedious (trial and error type experience).
"White lightning": be quiet 500DX white, Asus ROG Strix Z590-E Gaming, Intel Core i7 11700K, 64GB HyperX Fury, EVGA FTW3 Ultra RTX 3090, 2TB WD_Black SN850, Corsair iCue H150i Elite Capellix white
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 12:58pm
Hi again fwfdfireman,

What kind of fans do you have installed? Do you have the standard DS fans, or the Corsair RGB fans?

Also, are you using any kind of airflow control hardware? Since you mentioned Corsair iCue software, does that mean you are using the Corsair Commander Pro?

Thanks again.

Originally posted by fwfdfireman

I would do not waste any time with SLi anymore.
Re-think your water cooling needs. The Velox has the best airflow and I am just running DS's AIO 240mm sealed unit and I do not hear this PC run at normal or mid temps. Now if I am running a AAA game my ASUS card cranks all three fans up, plus I have the case fans set a tad higher in rpm than the "Quiet" in my Corsair iCue software, I will hear the PC but is not loud, you just hear it. Running MSI Afterburner to check on temps, if I remember correctly, I never got over 65c on the CPU or GPU.
Best of luck.
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
MrCheetah View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 09 Mar 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 184
  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by JamesAstro

Now I'm pondering my CPU choice. It seems like most people have an unfavorable view of the Intel Core i9-11900K. But then I see benchmarks like the one shown in the attached image, and it looks like the fastest chip for gaming.

If I'm only using my PC for gaming, then is the i9-11900K the best choice?

I understand your concern and don't have a final/complete answer for you. However, some observations and bits:

• I'm not seeing the 11700K on that chart/graph. I wonder if it was skipped intentionally. I do see the 11600K, which doesn't fair bad at all.
-- 11900K 8 cores, 5.2GHz Max Turbo Boost, 16MB cache
-- 11700K 8 cores, 5.0GHz Max Turbo Boost, 16MB cache
-- 11600K 6 cores, 4.9GHz Max Turbo Boost, 12MB cache
--- Even if we ignore the number of cores, the 11900K has other advantages. As you can also see, the differences between the 11700K and 11900K are fewer, only a potential couple hundred MHz of boost.
• The test suite is done at 1440p. No doubt this is purposefully as the CPU doesn't play a significant role in gaming performance with low frame rates.
-- In 1080p and 1440p gaming, mid to high end GPUs can process frames as quick or quicker than the CPU can feed the data. So, the CPU (as well as RAM and possibly PCIe bus) becomes the bottleneck.
-- Some games also rely more on CPU processing in general, though I can't recall which offhand.
--- Basically, these results show the higher end difference of CPU gains in gaming, not what you'll experience/witness all of the time.
"White lightning": be quiet 500DX white, Asus ROG Strix Z590-E Gaming, Intel Core i7 11700K, 64GB HyperX Fury, EVGA FTW3 Ultra RTX 3090, 2TB WD_Black SN850, Corsair iCue H150i Elite Capellix white
Back to Top
fwfdfireman View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 18 Aug 2020
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 310
  Quote fwfdfireman Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 1:37pm
JamesAstro, I had the Corsair RGB and the iCue Commander Pro installed in mine along with some Corsair memory. They light up real nice. Took me a bit to get the hang of the iCue software, but got it and set my fan speeds there. Downloaded some nice lighting profiles for iCue and really like it. DS set my RGB case lights AND their cpu cooler RGB to a nice color sequence so I have my Corsair RGB keyboard, those lights, fans, memory set to match. Fortunately, my Asus MB's lights where factory set to a similar lighting profile.

My understanding is DS does not offer the Corsair LL RGB fans anymore, but then I have not looked at the configurator.

Velox Saga

Here is the link to my story with the Velox. Pictures of the rig lit up and working after the RMA process are on page 3.

Edited by fwfdfireman - 05 Jul 2021 at 1:46pm
Old Gamers Never Die!
Back to Top
Clay View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 518
  Quote Clay Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Jul 2021 at 1:59pm
Looks like its just coming down your personal taste at this point. Lots of good points being made
I9 10900K
MSI Z490-A Pro MoBo
FTX 2070 Super
16G [email protected]
Razor Keyboard and Mouse
1TB SSD 4TB HDD
27" ASUS Monitor 144hz
Corsair Void Wireless Headset
Back to Top
hoserator View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran

We don't need no stinking "Avatars" !
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6585
  Quote hoserator Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Jul 2021 at 2:16am
To the Op:
the 11900K has had lukewarm reviews because it is only "better" than the 10900K it replaces by incorporating Gen 4 PCIe. It has less cores than the 10900K but it trumps the rest in single core speed. Games are generally GPU intensive not cpu so 1 core is what is used.
if you are getting a new system, you want Gen 4 PCIe. if only upgrading, I'd wait for better Intel offerings (or go AMD).

You have strong cards that should hold you for a bit more.


Edited by hoserator - 06 Jul 2021 at 2:17am
Back to Top
Cretae View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Online Status: Online
Posts: 5843
  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Jul 2021 at 4:40am
Yes, the lukewarm reception for 11th gen is because Intel failed to get beyond 14nm die size while AMD is already at 7nm, they stuck with 8 cores, and the performance is marginal.

I attempted to persuade you to stick with the cards you have and upgrade inexpensively the mobo and CPU (11700K) so that it would not only get down the road to a stronger, cheaper, GPU solution, but a new system a year from now would be an Alder Lake CPU, which promises a much better leap forward. IMHO, upgrading through DS was a good idea.

Using 2x 2080Tis when they work, and shutting one down when they don't wouldn't have been too bad a solution to get you to a place where a new system will achieve what you want and is more powerful and more affordable. My mind just balks at being held up for $2500 for a $900 card. There's no guarantee cards will be more reasonable in a year, but the industry has to work as hard as they can in that direction if they ever expect to sell in the quantities they need to in years ahead. That's my thinking.

I understand impatience, but just 10 months ago, the 2080Ti was the card everyone would die for, and you have two of them. I also understand that SLI doesn't work well, and has little to no future, but I don't propose you continue in that vein. I just wonder how it will feel when the 4080 comes out at $800 next July/August and bests the 3080Ti by 20%. What will you do with your $2500 card?   
Back to Top
hoserator View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran

We don't need no stinking "Avatars" !
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6585
  Quote hoserator Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Jul 2021 at 6:31am
I also had 2 x 2080Tis and removed one to upgrade another system. The only noticeable difference was that the remaining 2080Ti ran cooler and cooler is better. Didn't feel it gaming.
Back to Top
MrCheetah View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 09 Mar 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 184
  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Jul 2021 at 11:27am
I'm not about to argue against the waiting recommendation. Fortunately, most CPU, PSU, and motherboard availability have fallen back in line. However, only the low end graphics cards are even remotely near MSRP -- and I don't think prices will slide down as quickly as some YouTubers are wishfully anticipating. I could be wrong though.

Additionally, the 2080 Ti is about on par with the 3070, plus has more VRAM.

UserBenchmark - RTX 3070 vs. RTX 2080-Ti

GPU Check - RTX 2080 Ti vs. RTX 3070

Basically, not a bad position. However, if you feel the need, go with a new rig @JamesAstro.

Originally posted by hoserator

To the Op:
the 11900K has had lukewarm reviews because it is only "better" than the 10900K it replaces by incorporating Gen 4 PCIe. It has less cores than the 10900K but it trumps the rest in single core speed. Games are generally GPU intensive not cpu so 1 core is what is used.
if you are getting a new system, you want Gen 4 PCIe. if only upgrading, I'd wait for better Intel offerings (or go AMD).

Originally posted by Cretae

Yes, the lukewarm reception for 11th gen is because Intel failed to get beyond 14nm die size while AMD is already at 7nm, they stuck with 8 cores, and the performance is marginal.

You are correct. Although, IMO, much of what the critics use as an argument is laughable. 1) Primarily gaming benchmarks. So, the extra cores of the 10th gen. i9 are moot 2) Differences year over year are almost always miniscule. Go at least three generations before comparing. Sheesh!

Granted, the manufacturing process size fail is worthy of some scoffing.

Edited by MrCheetah - 06 Jul 2021 at 11:29am
"White lightning": be quiet 500DX white, Asus ROG Strix Z590-E Gaming, Intel Core i7 11700K, 64GB HyperX Fury, EVGA FTW3 Ultra RTX 3090, 2TB WD_Black SN850, Corsair iCue H150i Elite Capellix white
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Jul 2021 at 2:06pm
I finally did it! I just ordered a Velox with the following specs. Now the wait begins!

Specifications:
Chassis Model: Digital Storm Velox
Exterior Finish: - Standard Factory Finish
Trim Accents: - Standard Factory Finish
Processor: Intel Core i9-11900K (5.3 GHz Turbo) (16-Thread) (8-Core) 3.5 GHz (Rocket Lake)
Motherboard: ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero (Wi-Fi) (Intel Z590 Chipset) (Up to 3x PCI-E Devices)
System Memory: 32GB DDR4 3600MHz G.Skill TridentZ (RGB Light Bar)
Power Supply: 850W Digital Storm Performance Series (Modular) (80 Plus Gold)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Optical Drive: - No Thanks
Storage Set 1: 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 980 PRO) (NVM Express)
Storage Set 2: - No Thanks
Storage Set 3: - No Thanks
RAID Config: - No Thanks
RAID Card: - No Thanks
Internet Access: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Graphics Card(s): 1x GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12GB (VR Ready)
Sound Card: Integrated Motherboard Audio
HPC Processor: - No Thanks
Extreme Cooling: H20: Stage 2: Digital Storm Vortex Liquid CPU Cooler (Dual Fan) (Fully Sealed + No Maintenance)
HydroLux Tubing Style: - Not Applicable, I do not have a custom HydroLux liquid cooling system selected
HydroLux Fluid Color: - Not Applicable, I do not have a custom HydroLux liquid cooling system selected
Cable Management: Exotic Cable Management - White - (Cable Combs with Custom Color Sleeved Extension Cables)
Chassis Fans: Cooler Master MasterFan Halo (RGB Fans) (Remote Control Only)
Internal Lighting: Remote Controlled Advanced LED Lighting System (Multiple RGB Color Modes)
Airflow Control: - No Thanks
Chassis Mods: - No Thanks
Noise Reduction: - No Thanks
LaserMark: - No Thanks
Boost Processor: Stock Factory Turbo Boost Advanced Automatic Overclocking
Boost Graphics Card(s): - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my video card(s)
Boost OS: - No Thanks, Please do not tweak the services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home (64-Bit)
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Jul 2021 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by Cretae

My mind just balks at being held up for $2500 for a $900 card. There's no guarantee cards will be more reasonable in a year, but the industry has to work as hard as they can in that direction if they ever expect to sell in the quantities they need to in years ahead. That's my thinking.


Yeah, that makes sense. I finally decided to upgrade this morning, and ordered my new Velox system. :) My reason for not waiting is that I can sell my old EVGA Hydro Copper FTW3 2080 Ti cards for $1000 - $1500 each on eBay right now. That'll knock off roughly $2000 - $3000 from my system price. If I wait until later, then my system would cost less, but I would also get significantly less money for my 2080 Ti cards. I figure it'll be about the same net cost either way, maybe.

That...and I'm just tired of waiting. I must have more speed!!!!!

:)

Edited by JamesAstro - 06 Jul 2021 at 5:57pm
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
Cretae View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Online Status: Online
Posts: 5843
  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Jul 2021 at 1:03am
There's the key. No arguing with the desire for speed from me. You heard it all and made your choice. In the end, that's what it's...and we...are all about. Put the facts out there and let the OP decide what's best for him. Good on ya! Let the process go smoothly for you, and may the results meet expectation!
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Jul 2021 at 9:21am
My Velox order has already been submitted. However, I'm toying with the idea of using Noctua fans, and perhaps even the Noctua DH-D15 air cooler. This leads to a few questions:

1) Will DS let me customize my build with parts that they don't currently offer? In other words, will they use Noctua cooling parts if I provide them?

2) What fan sizes can I use? Will the Velox support 140mm fans, or should everything be 120mm.

3) Do you think this is a worthwhile change for reducing noise levels? Or should I stick with the Corsair RGB Fans and AIO liquid cooler?

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Edited by JamesAstro - 07 Jul 2021 at 9:41am
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
hoserator View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran

We don't need no stinking "Avatars" !
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6585
  Quote hoserator Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Jul 2021 at 4:26pm
For a quick answer, keep what you have. The only things I would change are  W10 Pro instead of Home (but that's me) and the warranty is only 1 year parts so I would extend some. One year flies when you're having fun gaming and it is true that parts will fail at the beginning but.....


DS used to install special order hardware and you would have to call them to find out if they still do. I don't think, regardless, that they would install a Noctua cooler since they already went through that experience and results are not pretty.

There are considerations to be taken when installing a DH-15 if you are going to do it yourself. In particular, SIZE. It is very big and its fins will invade the RAM area. If your RAM sticks are tall, no fit. There is a DH-15S that gives more clearance but...SIZE. You have to build with the Noctua taken into consideration.
That said, it is extremely quiet and efficient.

The Velox will take 140mm fans, at least on top.
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 09 Jul 2021 at 1:21pm
I contacted DS to see if they would install custom hardware for me, and they said yes! I made the following changes to my order:

     • Replaced the 140mm Corsair RGB Fans with Noctua NF-14 Black fans
     • Replaced the 120mm Corsair RGB Fans with Noctua NF-S12A Black fans
     • Replaced the DS Vortex AIO liquid cooler with Noctua NH-D15S air cooler

And to answer a question that I asked earlier, the Velox can handle these fan sizes:

     • Three 140mm fans in front
     • Two 140mm fans on top
     • One 120mm in back

Final Specifications:
Chassis Model: Digital Storm Velox
Exterior Finish: - Standard Factory Finish
Trim Accents: - Standard Factory Finish
Processor: Intel Core i9-11900K (5.3 GHz Turbo) (16-Thread) (8-Core) 3.5 GHz (Rocket Lake)
Motherboard: ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero (Wi-Fi) (Intel Z590 Chipset) (Up to 3x PCI-E Devices)
System Memory: 32GB DDR4 3600MHz G.Skill TridentZ (RGB Light Bar)
Power Supply: 850W Digital Storm Performance Series (Modular) (80 Plus Gold)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Optical Drive: - No Thanks
Storage Set 1: 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 980 PRO) (NVM Express)
Storage Set 2: - No Thanks
Storage Set 3: - No Thanks
RAID Config: - No Thanks
RAID Card: - No Thanks
Internet Access: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Graphics Card(s): 1x GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 12GB (VR Ready)
Sound Card: Integrated Motherboard Audio
HPC Processor: - No Thanks
Extreme Cooling: Noctua NH-D15S air cooler
Cable Management: Exotic Cable Management - Red
Chassis Fans: Noctua NF-A14, and NF-S12A
Internal Lighting: Remote Controlled Advanced LED Lighting System (Multiple RGB Color Modes)
Airflow Control: - No Thanks
Chassis Mods: - No Thanks
Noise Reduction: - No Thanks
LaserMark: - No Thanks
Boost Processor: Stock Factory Turbo Boost Advanced Automatic Overclocking
Boost Graphics Card(s): - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my video card(s)
Boost OS: - No Thanks, Please do not tweak the services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home (64-Bit)
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
hoserator View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran

We don't need no stinking "Avatars" !
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6585
  Quote hoserator Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 10 Jul 2021 at 4:58pm

AwesomeYou will be very pleased! Thanks for letting us know that DS is providing custom orders. Big%20Smile

Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 12:07pm
To everybody in this thread, thanks so much for your help! I'm primarily a Mac user, so I'm somewhat lacking in my knowledge of PC hardware. Your advice has been extremely helpful.

I purchased my first Digital Storm PC in 2008. Then in 2015 I upgraded it to a high-end Aventum 3. Now I'm upgrading to a Velox with the latest hardware. All of those purchase decisions were helped by this forum.

Thank you Digital Storm for supporting this forum, and thank you for all of the members who contribute to it!
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
Clay View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 518
  Quote Clay Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 1:50pm
I9 10900K
MSI Z490-A Pro MoBo
FTX 2070 Super
16G [email protected]
Razor Keyboard and Mouse
1TB SSD 4TB HDD
27" ASUS Monitor 144hz
Corsair Void Wireless Headset
Back to Top
MrCheetah View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 09 Mar 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 184
  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by JamesAstro

To everybody in this thread, thanks so much for your help! I'm primarily a Mac user, so I'm somewhat lacking in my knowledge of PC hardware. Your advice has been extremely helpful.

Happy to help.

My main system is a Mac (recently upgraded to an M1 Mac mini). I've used and built "Windows boxes" for several years. I primarily utilize Windows for some work and secondary education related tasks. I've also setup a couple of Raspberry Pi units. Basically, been around the block many times and not opposed to using various/other items if it's the right or necessary tool for the job.
"White lightning": be quiet 500DX white, Asus ROG Strix Z590-E Gaming, Intel Core i7 11700K, 64GB HyperX Fury, EVGA FTW3 Ultra RTX 3090, 2TB WD_Black SN850, Corsair iCue H150i Elite Capellix white
Back to Top
Cretae View Drop Down
DS Veteran
DS Veteran
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Online Status: Online
Posts: 5843
  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 3:56am
Happy to help.
Back to Top
JamesAstro View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Email address used to purchase matched with forums account email.

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 438
  Quote JamesAstro Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 15 Jul 2021 at 4:52pm
Woo hoo! I'm at Stage 2 in the production process now. That's faster than I was expecting.

:)
Velox, Intel Core i9 11900K, ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Hero
32GB RAM, 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME
RTX 3090, 38" Ultrawide LG-38GL950G
Noctua NH-D15S cooler and NF-A14 fans, Corsair AX1600i PSU
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 9.765625E-02 seconds.