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How Many Watts Do We Need?

Post Date: 2009-06-11
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Bill the Cat View Drop Down
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Posts: 1150 		  Quote Bill the Cat Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: How Many Watts Do We Need?
    Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 12:44pm
Good article.
 
 
Too bad they didn't go all the way and test a true SLI configuration.
 
Let the flames begin!


Edited by Bill the Cat - 11 Jun 2009 at 12:48pm
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Posts: 5084 		  Quote justin.kerr Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 1:09pm
#'s seems about right. Now add another GPU, and OC them add 200 watts, OC the i7 way up,  add 180 watts, and 2 pumps add 50 watts, that put it close to 1,000 watts without capacitor aging factored.
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Posts: 543 		  Quote Zardoz8719 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by justin.kerr

#'s seems about right. Now add another GPU, and OC them add 200 watts, OC the i7 way up,  add 180 watts, and 2 pumps add 50 watts, that put it close to 1,000 watts without capacitor aging factored.
 
Your back of the napkin computations are both impressive...and a bit frightening.  Especially when I realize paying for the watts my machine is pulling...is only part of the picture.  I also get to--pay some more when I turn up the air conditioning to compensate for the heat my rig is venting--oh joy  Wink.   Of course, if I lived way up North...instead of Florida...I could probably use the extra thermal energy--maybe I just need to move and quit whining about the electric bill Big%20smile
 
Justin...was wondering (in your benchmarking/record setting travels)...if you might know of anything "new" on the horizon in the CPU/GPU cooling department--short of exotic Liquid Nitrogen??  Is LC the answer to handling the 1000 watts of today--and the 1500watts of next week/month/year??  Are Phase Change/Peltier concepts too advanced...is LC the answer for the foreseeable future...?  (I) have began wondering why the necessity to design/engineer a cooling system that fits within a case--why not a separate/standalone unit--running single/multiple flex tubing (with quick disconnects) into the case...capable of cooling both CPU/GPUs...and even the PSU if desired.  Such a unit could be easily transfered from one unit to another upon upgrading...or detached when shipping to manufacture for maintenance (thus reducing shipping weight). 
 
Anyway...color me puzzled...seems like the elimination of "HEAT" would get rid of an abundance of fans and the noise associated with them (GPU fans in particular, making for quieter operation....as well as options for decreasing case form factor/footprint...which seems to be getting ever larger...   Any thoughts?? Angry
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Bill the Cat View Drop Down
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Posts: 1150 		  Quote Bill the Cat Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by justin.kerr

#'s seems about right. Now add another GPU, and OC them add 200 watts, OC the i7 way up,  add 180 watts, and 2 pumps add 50 watts, that put it close to 1,000 watts without capacitor aging factored.
 
180 additional Watts to OC a i7, or do you me 180 Watts total for the OC'd CPU? Either way that sounds like a hell of a lot, but I'm not "current" on such matters.
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Posts: 682 		  Quote satsunada Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 4:46pm
People do that with refrigerator compressors. The outside the box system you were referring to. They are designing sealed cases and what not for phase change and peltier or TEC coolers are getting more use however the problem is still condensation. Unfortunately the problem isnt heat when it comes to high end cooling, it's lack of it. TEC can cool VERY well but if it keeps it on it will drop the chip below room temp and condensation builds so they have to balance it or turn it off and do standard cooling. No one runs their comp at Load 24/7 and no one wants a computer pulling max power from the outlet all the time so you have to find a balance.
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Posts: 5084 		  Quote justin.kerr Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Originally posted by justin.kerr

#'s seems about right. Now add another GPU, and OC them add 200 watts, OC the i7 way up,  add 180 watts, and 2 pumps add 50 watts, that put it close to 1,000 watts without capacitor aging factored.
 
180 additional Watts to OC a i7, or do you me 180 Watts total for the OC'd CPU? Either way that sounds like a hell of a lot, but I'm not "current" on such matters.
Decently OC i7's pull 250-270 watts, 300-320 is about tops for 24/7, but lol that is why the Classified has (2) 8 pin 12v feeding the chip, for extreme Ln2 benching, the DFI UT H8 will max out at 600 watts to the chip.... Like I have been saying the i7 is one power hungry monster when pushed..


Edited by justin.kerr - 11 Jun 2009 at 4:55pm
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justin.kerr View Drop Down
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Posts: 5084 		  Quote justin.kerr Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Zardoz8719

Originally posted by Justin.Kerr

#'s seems about right. Now add another GPU, and OC them add 200 watts, OC the i7 way up,  add 180 watts, and 2 pumps add 50 watts, that put it close to 1,000 watts without capacitor aging factored.
 
Your back of the napkin computations are both impressive...and a bit frightening.  Especially when I realize paying for the watts my machine is pulling...is only part of the picture.  I also get to--pay some more when I turn up the air conditioning to compensate for the heat my rig is venting--oh joy  Wink.   Of course, if I lived way up North...instead of Florida...I could probably use the extra thermal energy--maybe I just need to move and quit whining about the electric bill Big%20smile
 
Justin...was wondering (in your benchmarking/record setting travels)...if you might know of anything "new" on the horizon in the CPU/GPU cooling department--short of exotic Liquid Nitrogen??  Is LC the answer to handling the 1000 watts of today--and the 1500watts of next week/month/year??  Are Phase Change/Pelter concepts too advanced...is LC the answer for the foreseeable future...?  (I) have began wondering why the necessity to design/engineer a cooling system that fits within a case--why not a separate/standalone unit--running single/multiple flex tubing (with quick disconnects) into the case...capable of cooling both CPU/GPUs...and even the PSU if desired.  Such a unit could be easily transfered from one unit to another upon upgrading...or detached when shipping to manufacture for maintenance (thus reducing shipping weight). 
 
Anyway...color me puzzled...seems like the elimination of "HEAT" would get rid of an abundance of fans and the noise associated with them (GPU fans in particular, making for quieter operation....as well as options for decreasing case form factor/footprint...which seems to be getting ever larger...   Any thoughts?? Angry
Phase/pelt are just too expensive to operate on 24/7, to me, lol. efficiency is the key. As Intel shrinks the dies, the heat will decrease..
 Air coolers keep getting better, and really are amazing. Just because a chip is water cooled, does not mean it will cool better than air. High end air vs low end wate r= lower temps with air.
If you take a good air cooler like a TRUE and  lap it, put 2 3,000 RPM fans in push pull with great case venting, you will have a cooling system equal to a decent water cooling setup, just loud as heck.. Water has more potential cooling, but most do not have the room to accommodate a high end water cooling setup.
Temps do not increase in a linear fashion, so just backing down an OC a tiny bit can reduce heat by a lot, don't get greedy and you can have a great i7 setup on air.
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inferno23 View Drop Down
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Posts: 519 		  Quote inferno23 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 5:13pm
justin out of curiosity to you benchmark as an very expensive hobby or some type of awsome job
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justin.kerr View Drop Down
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Posts: 5084 		  Quote justin.kerr Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 5:25pm
Hobby. Keeps me out of trouble.
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inferno23 View Drop Down
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Posts: 519 		  Quote inferno23 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 6:00pm
gain any money outta your hobby or is it like mine with paintball spend money for fun
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Posts: 1150 		  Quote Bill the Cat Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by justin.kerr

Decently OC i7's pull 250-270 watts, 300-320 is about tops for 24/7
 
Holy crap! I guess I am out of touch/date.... It is hard to believe air coolers can get rid of all that heat. But why does Intel advertise them as 130W?
 
If you're really doubling the power consumption of the CPU, you're OC'ing in a different universe than I am. 1000 Watt PSUs may make sense for "you guys", but they don't seem to make sense for anything I'll ever build.


Edited by Bill the Cat - 11 Jun 2009 at 7:35pm
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Posts: 5084 		  Quote justin.kerr Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 11 Jun 2009 at 10:02pm
Here is a good read for you. http://www.lostcircuits.com/mambo//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=42
This article by no means pushes the i7, but with a mild OC they get 230 watts for the cpu. Using their calcs, it backs up my numbers pretty close. And i explains TDP fairly well.
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Posts: 543 		  Quote Zardoz8719 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 6:21am
Originally posted by inferno23

gain any money outta your hobby or is it like mine with paintball spend money for fun
 
Read somewhere..."Money (or time) you enjoyed wasting--wasn't wasted"  Smile Ermm
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Zardoz8719 View Drop Down
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Posts: 543 		  Quote Zardoz8719 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 7:29am
Originally posted by justin.kerr

Here is a good read for you. http://www.lostcircuits.com/mambo//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=42
This article by no means pushes the i7, but with a mild OC they get 230 watts for the cpu. Using their calcs, it backs up my numbers pretty close. And i explains TDP fairly well.
 
Interesting article...falls under the category "be careful what you ask for"...and seems to confirm (mine/others) belief that you can come to most any conclusion depending on how you use/interpret the numbers Big%20smile  Really glad there wasn't a "quiz" at the end of the article--not sure I could have passed Smile
 
Your point on "condensation" being the real factor...adds to the complexities of finding a low cost, small footprint, efficient cooling solution.
 
...even as I consider how to phrase this next question--without sticking my head in the lions mouth--both you and the article point out how OC'ing leads to big increases in heat.  Seeing as how the (vast) majority (approaching 100%) OC here...I wonder if it's worth it?  And, at what levels it becomes self-defeating...  Case in point...choosing between "stage 1" and "stage 2" OC...on a 920?  Just because it's "available" considering the big increase in heat etc...worth the effort/benefit??  Are "we" not (in the final analysis)...as "Bill the Cat" points out...partly to blame for system complexities (LC, more fans/vents, bigger PSUs) to accommodate our desire to squeeze higher performance out of each chip?  Is it just "our nature" that if Intel came out tomorrow with a 10Ghz chip...a quantum leap by todays standard...would we still check off the box for DSO to "OC to stage 2"??  Evil%20Smile
 
 
 


Edited by Zardoz8719 - 12 Jun 2009 at 11:55am
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Posts: 343 		  Quote Zurginator Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 9:22am
Originally posted by thread title

How many watts do we need?

It's over 9000!!! >:D
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Posts: 5084 		  Quote justin.kerr Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 9:33am
Considering we can gain a full 1,000 Mhz in cpu speed on 8 threads, while retaing stock voltages is just incredible to me. Most 920's D0 stepping get by nicely on good air cooling up to 3.8Ghz or so, each chip will be different.
 Just like anything else, it is cheap and easy to get decent gains over stock, but after that it takes so much to get so little. Smile


Edited by justin.kerr - 12 Jun 2009 at 9:34am
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Zardoz8719 View Drop Down
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Posts: 543 		  Quote Zardoz8719 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by justin.kerr

Considering we can gain a full 1,000 Mhz in cpu speed on 8 threads, while retaing stock voltages is just incredible to me. Most 920's D0 stepping get by nicely on good air cooling up to 3.8Ghz or so, each chip will be different.
 Just like anything else, it is cheap and easy to get decent gains over stock, but after that it takes so much to get so little. Smile
 
And your point before...that smaller and smaller chips give us lower power requirements--32nm coming in focus.  Will this (lower power dividend) too be offset on the one-hand...by us simutaneoulsy OC'ing with the other....  Pinch
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Posts: 1150 		  Quote Bill the Cat Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Zardoz8719

And your point before...that smaller and smaller chips give us lower power requirements--32nm coming in focus.  Will this (lower power dividend) too be offset on the one-hand...by us simutaneoulsy OC'ing with the other....  Pinch
 
Or maybe just by the fact that there's less surface area to dissipate heat through
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Zardoz8719 View Drop Down
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Posts: 543 		  Quote Zardoz8719 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Jun 2009 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Originally posted by Zardoz8719

And your point before...that smaller and smaller chips give us lower power requirements--32nm coming in focus.  Will this (lower power dividend) too be offset on the one-hand...by us simultaneously OC'ing with the other....  Pinch
 
Or maybe just by the fact that there's less surface area to dissipate heat through
 
The first image that came to mind after reading your post...was the pointy "little" tip of a soldering  iron  Smile 


Edited by Zardoz8719 - 12 Jun 2009 at 1:28pm
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