Ice Dragon Cooling FluidPost Date: 2010-09-09 |
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 09 Sep 2010 at 3:03pm |
I am not sure if any of you have heard of us, and I couldn't find any sort of 'rules' for this forum. So, if by linking another forum discussion is a bad thing I am sorry. It is the easy way. The forum discusses some of the aspects of the fluid that some of you might find helpful.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257131 |
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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don't want to step on anyone's toes
Edited by relttem - 16 Sep 2010 at 9:19am |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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hope you have permission to sell your oil here? Sure would help if you had some testing to show that the oil beat pure distilled, on an overloaded loop, and also one that has water deltas of less than 1C of ambient.
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Clocks ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
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But... its derived from snakes! And he posted it on the internet, so it must be true.
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-Clocks
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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if any of you want to test our nanofluid send me your testing capabilities and test plan, and we will send you a sample.
If you go to most of the other overclocking websites they have tested our stuff - you can read all about it. |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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I have yet to see anyone test it, that had decent enough testing equipment, decent enough testing environment and decent enough scientfic testing methods/approach, to come up with any results that showed an improvement.
My drunken monkey holds well over a gallon of fluid, so I doubt you want to send that much fluid, lol. If it could reduce temps a degree or so, that would be great, but long term usage would be much more important. That is another aspect that i have not seen any results on.?
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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did you look at any of the other websites? Lots of tests. There is even one done in German. There should be a review out any day now of our stuff vs. all the other coolants on the market. There is also some studies being done by Mayhem dyes. We've sent samples all over the place (AMD, Corsair, Coolit, Origin, NASA, Thermogear, girlgamer, Icronic), so we are against sending it out.
what are capable of measuring? We'd need fluid temps measured somewhere (rad in and rad out) and the flow rate to keep tabs on the load. Do you cool anything besides just the CPU? Can you control your rad fan speed yourself? A gallon would be a lot, but it depends on where you are. We usually send 2 - 32oz bottles. As for long term usage, you have this thing called 'stokes-settling' that will occur just due to gravity, but if the fluid is agitated that does not occur because the nanoparticles are neutrally buoyant. So, if you don't turn your computer off for months at a time it will be good. I have had it running in my computer for over two years, but that computer is almost never off. We are currently doing some evaporation studies. |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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Maybe you can post some links of the tests, none that I seen showed much at all. I have water cooled just about every component on a PC. yes I can control my fans speed, pumps speed.
My main system has 4 triple radiators, and one quad, and 2 very large reserviors, and a lot of tubing, so it does hold a lot of fluid.
I would use my test bench though for your stuff, which only has 2 quad radiators at the moment.
Does your fluid provide any mixed metal, galvanic corrosion resistance?
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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the nanoparticles are Zinc-oxide, which doesn't react with copper or aluminum. It is also a biocide - which is a nice thing too. The particle's mean size is 20nm.
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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I still don't see any benefit of the product? Unless the consumer has no clue what they are doing, has an extremely overloaded cooling system, with poor fluid flow, then that person could see a 1C drop in temps. But for any well designed loop, I have yet to see your product produce temps that are better than distilled water. It would cost be over $500.oo to replace all the distilled in my systems with your product, and since I swap out radiators, water blocks, pumps, ect on a regular basis there would be coolant loss to replace, raising the cost even more, so I could enjoy .2C better temps??? pretty hard sell IMHO
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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That's great that you see it that way. no one is making you buy it. And, it depends on what you are after. I could cool all that stuff you are cooling with some crazy amount of water (why that much water??) with a single loop and one tiny radiator. My system would be half the noise of yours, smaller, look a whole lot better, not have a bunch of tubes and, on top of that, be the same temp.
come by and check us out at CES. Edited by relttem - 16 Sep 2010 at 2:05pm |
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!ender_ ![]() DS Veteran ![]() Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4219 |
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lol this thread is baffling to me
are you an official representative of this new fluid? or an enthusiastic buyer? Edited by !ender_ - 16 Sep 2010 at 2:21pm |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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loud? how are 900 RPM gentle typhoon fans loud?
also show that you can even run 3 5870's overclocked to 1064Mhz stable.. doubt you could even do that, let alone keep all the GPU's under 40C for hours on end at 100% load..and all the while keep the CPU under 70C with 100% load? lol really ? no ones that freaking clueless.. really?
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Lat ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Aug 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 47 |
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Lol! This is a very interesting approach to marketing....
State your product is awesome
Provide no data to back it up
When challenged send people to find the data rahter than make it easy for them
Then talk badly about a potential customer's system (not only a potential customer but someone who could sway the opinions of a lot of people on a custom PC website)
Tell potential customers you could do what they did better than they did without knowing all the circumstances behind what they did...
I knew I missed out on the real stuff in my marketing classes!!!
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Invader Mig ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 05 Aug 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 244 |
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I heard if you feed trolls, they won't go back under their bridge.
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ablahblah ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Jun 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2312 |
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eh....he really has no clue about watercooling, does he. lol. marketing trollll
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R4D4RPR00F
Core i7 920 @ 3.9Ghz Asus Sabertooth X58 EVGA GTX 570 Mushkin 6GB 1414Mhz |
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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a 1000Watt load?..how big is your power supply? I am just curious.
Edited by relttem - 17 Sep 2010 at 9:03am |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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which one? lol
The one that will put 1230 watts to just the 12V rail or the one that will put 1104 watts to the 12v rail?
I am not trying to be dis-respectful at all, and if you have a revolutionary product, then I am all for it, but to gain respect in the water cooling community, it would really help for you to build an over the top gaming rig, performance wise, set a few world records with it, show that you are one of "us" lol it would help. a stock Phenom is not going to earn any cred.
Edited by justin.kerr - 17 Sep 2010 at 9:37am |
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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I am not taking any disrespect. Seriously, I am not. I totally agree with your hesitation and skepticism. I would be the same way. Sometimes I think the bashing gets a little out of hand, but it's the internet. And, sometimes, as with you, I need proof of some of the numbers people spit out. I will do my best to prove what we got. We have a lot of numbers and research done. We have some published papers in some mechanical engineering journals, a dissertation etc. We have had a lot of testers do tests with positive results. The latest test, which hasn't been released yet, shows even more improvement. This last test actually monitored load - which wasn't done on the previous tests.
At CES last year we had 2 Systems of two computers (AMD and Intel) on display both over clocked - but, I will admit they were no cutting edge machines. Last year was purely demonstration, and what we did was buy 4 WC computers from custom builders (like here), and replaced the water in two of the systems with our stuff. Then, we loaded them with thermocouples and monitored inlet and outlet temps of the coolant, before and after the cooling block, as well as ambient, CPU core temp, and temp after the rad. Then, we ran a CFD program that was set to load each core at 100%. It took 8 hours for Fluent to reach a solution solving a 350,000x350,000 matrix. At the same time we had SETI running on each of the cores to make sure the load was 100%. Using labview and a data computer we had another monitor that showed thermocouple readings. You could see whatever temps you wanted - this vs. that. We demonstrated what our stuff could do to whomever stopped by (Corsair, Coolit, Google, Intel, AMD, Columbia U, Thermogear to name a few). This year will be a little different in that we will have an actual bench set-up that let's us control the load specifically. So, we can load the block with 500W, for example, and show what happens. We will control both WC pump and rad fan speed too. I have done water cooling for a while and actually started out with phase-change stuff at a company called Kryotech - who was a pioneer of using refrigerant. I can answer just about any question regarding this stuff. And, I was actually recommended to come to this website - believe it or not. In short, what is going on with the nanofluid is that we have specifically shaped particles (20nm). These particles don't change the thermal conductivity of the fluid, but they affect the boundary layer. This enhances the heat transfer by increasing the convective coefficient. What that does is allow more heat to be put into the system without changing the dT. Which, is what we have shown, and our testers have shown. If you have any specific questions let me know. |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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it would be a lot better if you made two identical PC's, something like a water cooled, highly overclocked Intel 6 core CPU, with the chip set water cooled, 3 highly overclocked GTX 480's. have one with the typical Xtreme water cooling setup, a quad radiator for the CPU and chip se,t and dual triples for the 3 GTX 480's with medium speed fans, and the other rig, exact same, except for a lot smaller cooling setup, say 1/2 the radiator amount, but all else equal, and run them all day at 100% load on CPU, and GPU's. That would prove something, and show value, and performance, if your product had similar/better temps.
The typical trade show gimmick setup really won't do anything for the average-hardcore user.
and why mention Kryotech? that is like saying you helped design the Ford Pinto gas tank?
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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this is the latest test:
Gigabyte X58A-UD7, Core i7 (19x2000) @1.375v, BFG GTX280 SLI (627/1107 @1138mV). DDC3.2 w/XSPC V3 Top, Swiftech GTZ, Danger Den Tieton GTX in SLI (stock TIM/Pads), Koolance FM17, Delrin T drain, 2x Delrin T temps sensors, XSPC RX360 V2, 2x Delrin Temp Sensors, EK 150 Res. Kryotech would be more like helping ford design the car, not the gas tank..there wasn't a lot of phase change going on in 1998. If I remember correctly there was only one other commercially available system...anyway. |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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heat dump does not increase linearly with overclocking, so with such a mild setup, there is not much heat there, some, but still an out-dated mild setup. Also what fans?
get it to at least 4.5Ghz and push the GPU's at least some. 20% more tahn current setings as a min.
at only 3.8Ghz, you better not be over 50C max load.
Here is and old rig of mine at 3.8Ghz with just a swiftech rad, and cheap yate loon fans, medium speed, with crappy pump, and water block.
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Beezie ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 47 |
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i would like to see were the tests have been done links to websites that are well known before i see any links to any larger webpage with decent tests its just another sale`s argument you are comming with
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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The problem is, that his fluid, based on my minimal knowledge, only shows an improvement on highly overloaded systems. on well designed systems, there is between 0 and 1C improvement in all tests that I have seen, over distilled water. He should be focussing on highly overloaded systems to show the advantage, if that is where it really shines, just my guess.
The other problem is that he claimed that he could cool all of my hardware with one tiny radiator, and have equal temps.
well here you go, if the ol ice dragon can even get 3 5870's to run furmark at 1076Mhz ,with post processing, you can tell by the wavy flames in the pic, cooler than this, on a tiny radiator with a 6 core Intel at 100% usage.. well I am going to look like an ass and have to buy a whole bunch of his nanafluid.
and here is the CPU 100% loaded with Prime95
while testing.
so there, the bar is set, beat it, and prove your product. or don't and do a better job picking your demographic.
Edited by justin.kerr - 17 Sep 2010 at 5:26pm |
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al3xLJ ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 217 |
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wow, what resolution is ur setup justin?
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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2560x1600
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Dragoonseal ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 03 Apr 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2247 |
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I love your new signature Justin.
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Lilim
Intel Core i7 920 @4.2GHz HAF 932 - Dual SLI Nvidia GTX 480s 3x Intel X25-M G2 (80GB) SSD RAID0 |
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al3xLJ ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 217 |
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nice, thot so :P, looks huge on my tiny macbook pro 27 or 30 inch? |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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30
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rholyrag ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Oct 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 841 |
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I'm liking the new signature too...lol.
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"What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Maximus from Gladiator
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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I like the new sig too..free advertisement..rock on
Seriously, thanks for the test suggestion. I will seriously try to make this happen. It might take a liitle bit because we are sort of concentrating on CES right now. This what we have planned at the moment and was wondering for some feedback. We have a copper block with three cartridge heaters in it - each at 200W. Our WC block can hook up straight the block. This lets us put a know heat load on the system. We have a thermocouple measuring the temp at the block -WCblock interface..sort of like Tj of a chip. Then, we will measure our fluid temps and air temps. As a predecessor to the test above do you think this will show any meaningful data? We can show how the nanofluid's performance changes as the heat load increases vs. that of water or any other cooling liquid. |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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My wife will be working the Big Rock show in Vegas, and it overlaps CES, so I will prolly be there, can't pass up a free trip. lol Do what you want, but I still don't think that trade show setup will help sell your product. people know that it is too easy to manipulate the results, even if there are not skewed, they still think it. lol, so easy to raise/lower wattage, or increase/decrease pump flow, raise/lower fan speeds, ect. even skew the thermal readings.
2 identical systems, just one with 1/2 the radiator capacity, and your fluid, showing similar temps, with a cost breakdown of the 2 watercooling setups would be much better.
I will be awaiting your build that is the same as mine, for temp results.
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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Justin, I really appreciate your insight..it is seriously helping out. The trade show is going to show some other things we are working along with CPU stuff. I will try to replicate your system. But, give me some time to put it together. I will start with identical rads and then step the nanofluid one down.
I can look into getting you a ticket to CES if you want one. let me know. |
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justin.kerr ![]() DS Veteran ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5084 |
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You fail to mention that in this latest test, your product got beat by plain water, again.
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relttem ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 09 Sep 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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You can't look at the temperatures without looking at the rest of the data. we actually didn't get beat by plain water - we didn't get beat by anyone. If you look at the loads you will see that the load on the nanofluid is a lot higher than that of the TAP, along with all the other fluids, and we were still within 1% of the tap temp. The data from that test wasn't presented very well. You call look at the load on the FluidXP - almost 500W..there wasn't even 500W going in the system... We did a first law analysis on the whole test and posted it on our website.. We beat TAP/everyone..again
Edited by relttem - 23 Sep 2010 at 10:02am |
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