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Model Segmentation

Post Date: 2020-09-30

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Dino58 View Drop Down
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: Model Segmentation
    Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 3:22pm
Old DS customer: mid-2011. Gus is still running well (after new fan, new PS, and new non-melted GPU over the years.) But it's time.

I primarily game. I'm not a PC novice, but I haven't kept up. I REALLY don't like fluid running next to AC , so when I found out DS doesn't offer air-cooling anymore, I went and researched every one of their competitors. Most I would never hand money to; none are any better and most are much worse on the business side. So here I am, holding my nose on AIOs after much YouTubing. And I don't really understand the product line-up reasons-for-being.

On the Lynx, Lumos, and Velox lines, what is the one-line distinctive difference between them? I see the case footprints, but after I load guts they're really interchangeable, within a band, on price. The Lumos seems to be all about light shows (I'm not), but offers a Slade X case with solid sides. And so on.

So, what is the core idea of each product line?


Edited by Dino58 - 30 Sep 2020 at 3:23pm
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  Quote Bob100 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 8:06pm
Air cooling is still available, at least on the Lumos model. The configurator lists this option: AIR: Stage 1: High-Performance Copper Heat Pipe Cooler. I have that on my Lumos and it works fine.
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  Quote hoserator Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 11:36pm
Welcome back.

The main difference is that the Velox is an exclusive proprietary DS design and its window is on the right side when looking at the pc from the front. The mobo is upside down with the gpu(s) on the top. The other two models are standard with the window on the left. You can configure the Lynx but it is meant to be a pre-built.
The AIO's are a very capable cooling solution and keep the systems running cooler than with air only. (exception would be a Noctua but those are no longer offered because of size and issues on shipping)
Hope that helps.
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  Quote Spartacii Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 2:01am
From 2010 to 2016, I had 6 DS systems. 4 for home & 2 for the office. I passed down the systems to other family members every time I upgraded. I stopped upgrading annually when I noted that my games played very well in my older hardware and when Intel did not move beyond the 14mm node. My current system is from 2016. An 8700k with 1080ti. I'm getting the upgrade itch now.

I feel the same way in regards to air cooling vs AIO. Most importantly though, for my use case, I intend to keep my new system as my primary for at least 4-6 years, at which point I will pass it down as a secondary system for the office for at least another 2 years and after that, pass it down to the wife for at least another 2 years. So I need a system that can run without hassle nor maintenance nor upgrading anything other than GPU or SSD for at least 8-10 years.

I'm not sure that an AIO can give me that reliability. Steve at GamersNexus said that talking privately with AIO manufacturers, they told him that AIOs would last 5 years or so before failure. That's not long enough for my needs. Yes, I realize that I could upgrade the AIO at that time but that is not what I need nor what I'm looking for.

Further, in the AIO orientation study video at GamersNexus, Steve concluded that top mounted AIOs have the least rate of decay compared to front mounted AIOs and specially when compared to bottom mounted AIOs. The Velox case does not offer feasibility for a top mounted AIO and I have not gotten an answer in regards to whether the Lynx case allows for a top mounted AIO.

I do not care that an AIO could possibly but not guarantee that the system will run cooler or quieter. For my use case & needs, the difference in temperature & noise is insignificant compared to the need for reliability & low maintenance.

Studies by JayzTwoCents, LinusTechTips, GamersNexus, & HardwareUnboxed, have concluded that the Air vs AIO debate is not settled 100% and much depends on the quality of the coolers and user case scenarios. What they all agree upon though is that nothing can beat air in regards to maintenance and reliability.

I understand why DS and almost all the boutique vendors stopped offering air coolers due to shipping problems but nevertheless it does limit my options as a customer. Having said that, since I live close enough to Gilroy, CA, I will ask DS to special order me an air cooler and I will just make the 2 hour drive to them and pick the system up and so avoid the shipping concerns.

What I don't know is why DS offers the AIR: Stage 1: High-Performance Copper Heat Pipe Cooler option with Intel systems but not for AMD systems considering that AMD's 7mm node runs cooler at higher clocks & more cores than Intel's 14mm+ to infinity and beyond nodes :-)

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  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 5:03am
With AMD CPUs, the air option is the very highly thought of Wraith cooler that comes stock with the AMD procs.

With the Lynx, customers can get that RGB you don't care for essentially free as it comes with the case.

I would prefer the Lumos. It's expensive to light it up, so don't. IMHO the 10700K is your choice for CPU. Should easily last 8 years as long as it doesn't die, and we both know the mostly don't. The other two 10 cores are barely any faster (1-2%) and they don't bring anything to gaming for the extra $$. The Intel is about 10% faster than a Ryzen.

Be sure to select an NVMe M.2 SSD for your primary drive. They run on the PCIe bus at 5 times the speed of a SATA drive. The DS Performance M.2s are SATA. Choose NVMe.
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 6:06am
Originally posted by Bob100

Air cooling is still available, at least on the Lumos model. The configurator lists this option: AIR: Stage 1: High-Performance Copper Heat Pipe Cooler. I have that on my Lumos and it works fine.


I was set on the Ryzen 7 CPU coming in (based on a lot of media saying AMD had pulled ahead of Intel on a number of factors) and went down the AMD configuration silo on the site. The AMDs only offer the included AMD cooler as an air option, and when I chose that I got a scary red warning message with a yield sign telling me I might be thermally bound with that cooler. Red=bad.

Even though I know AMD engineers approved of that cooler (a multi-billion dollar decision), and even though my brother, who has been in the computer industry back to working at CRAY and even longer, just built himself a Ryzen 7 system with that cooler with no problems, I still was apprehensive. I thought maybe DS knew something extra, or that the cooler would affect my warranty.

So I left the DS site and went to five of the Major Competitors, spending two days looking at their wares and watching videos on liquid cooling. I still wanted to do business with DS, so I came back. I had read more on the Intel 10700k, so this time I went down the Intel silo and lo and behold, air coolers. Not my beloved brown Noctuas, but good enough I think.

Of all the config options, I think cooling is the only one on the DS site that isn't mirrored across the CPU silos. DS ought to consider putting a note before the plunge into the silo informing customers that upgraded air cooling is available in Intel world. They very nearly lost a return customer.
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 6:31am
Originally posted by hoserator

Welcome back.
The main difference is that the Velox is an exclusive proprietary DS design and its window is on the right side when looking at the pc from the front. The mobo is upside down with the gpu(s) on the top. The other two models are standard with the window on the left. You can configure the Lynx but it is meant to be a pre-built.
The AIO's are a very capable cooling solution and keep the systems running cooler than with air only. (exception would be a Noctua but those are no longer offered because of size and issues on shipping)
Hope that helps.


Well, this helped a lot. Thanks. I had not noticed the Velox door is on the right side. My wife would comment on that, but I digress. Right side does not work in my environment. The tower must sit on the left side of my PC desk, so that door would be up against a solid desk. I was interested in the Velox because they advertise it as having better air flow, and I'm committed to air cooling on the CPU.

I wish DS had full, non-beauty shots of each desktop in rotate/zoom format as Amazon does on their site. If I'm going to spend north of two grand I would like some exact, well-lit pictures of what I'm buying. I was trying yesterday to see where they mount the AIO reservoirs after watching an excellent YouTube video about how incorrect positioning can lead to air-binding pumps, and could not find any such photos.

My Gus is nearing 10-years-old with heavy, 7-day use, and still running fine. DS sold me a Noctua back then, and it's a rock-solid beast even today. My temps have never varied. I don't replace PCs every five years, and no site I can find will commit to AIOs beyond six years. I know they fail rarely, but when they do . . .

Anyway. Am I correct that the Lumos has glass all around? I'm still struggling to understand the design trade-offs between the three lines I mentioned. I can't afford the top-end, and the Bolt looks, I don't know, very crowded inside.

The Lynx looks at least OK, but again, I worry it presumes liquid cooling and thus has restricted airflow horizontally.

Edited by Dino58 - 01 Oct 2020 at 7:06am
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 6:50am
Originally posted by Spartacii

From 2010 to 2016, I had 6 DS systems. 4 for home & 2 for the office. I passed down the systems to other family members every time I upgraded. I stopped upgrading annually when I noted that my games played very well in my older hardware and when Intel did not move beyond the 14mm node. My current system is from 2016. An 8700k with 1080ti. I'm getting the upgrade itch now.
I feel the same way in regards to air cooling vs AIO. Most importantly though, for my use case, I intend to keep my new system as my primary for at least 4-6 years, at which point I will pass it down as a secondary system for the office for at least another 2 years and after that, pass it down to the wife for at least another 2 years. So I need a system that can run without hassle nor maintenance nor upgrading anything other than GPU or SSD for at least 8-10 years.
I'm not sure that an AIO can give me that reliability. Steve at GamersNexus said that talking privately with AIO manufacturers, they told him that AIOs would last 5 years or so before failure. That's not long enough for my needs. Yes, I realize that I could upgrade the AIO at that time but that is not what I need nor what I'm looking for.
Further, in the AIO orientation study video at GamersNexus, Steve concluded that top mounted AIOs have the least rate of decay compared to front mounted AIOs and specially when compared to bottom mounted AIOs. The Velox case does not offer feasibility for a top mounted AIO and I have not gotten an answer in regards to whether the Lynx case allows for a top mounted AIO.
I do not care that an AIO could possibly but not guarantee that the system will run cooler or quieter. For my use case & needs, the difference in temperature & noise is insignificant compared to the need for reliability & low maintenance.
Studies by JayzTwoCents, LinusTechTips, GamersNexus, & HardwareUnboxed, have concluded that the Air vs AIO debate is not settled 100% and much depends on the quality of the coolers and user case scenarios. What they all agree upon though is that nothing can beat air in regards to maintenance and reliability.
I understand why DS and almost all the boutique vendors stopped offering air coolers due to shipping problems but nevertheless it does limit my options as a customer. Having said that, since I live close enough to Gilroy, CA, I will ask DS to special order me an air cooler and I will just make the 2 hour drive to them and pick the system up and so avoid the shipping concerns.
What I don't know is why DS offers the <span ="ed_s" id="ed_coolings">AIR: Stage 1: High-Performance Copper Heat Pipe Cooler option with Intel systems but not for AMD systems considering that AMD's 7mm node runs cooler at higher clocks & more cores than Intel's 14mm+ to infinity and beyond nodes :-)</span>




Wow. Thanks for the long detailed reply. I think we are air-brothers.

I've owned one DS system, almost 10 years old now. It has the old Noctua cooler. It's smaller than the current one, but still bigger than a softball. It shipped fine, but then again in those days DS shipped in very large, brown cartons that were harder to ID on the UPS truck and didn't invite kicking. I actually like the fan sounds; if they ever went away due to failure I'd be on that Off button like white on rice. I looked into scores of radar and sonar stacks in the Navy, and electronics doing their job is not worth watching, or paying to light up. Similarly, that experience taught me that electronics + water = bad day.

I too watched that video on GamersNexus, along with others by him, and it was excellent. I particularly liked him showing a DS competitor's video where that builder had incorrectly mounted the AIO--- WHICH WAS THEIR OWN HOUSE BRAND. You can't make this stuff up.

I could build a system with the current Noctua; I have the skills. I don't have the BIOS skills, and at 62 I don't want to spend lifespan learning them. I want to play games.

I think I'm locked on the Intel 10700k with air. I just wish I could get a full read on the cases, and the airflow of each. The Velox does not work for me with a right-hand door. I'd like airflow specs on the Lynx and Lumos. Maybe worth a message to their tech folks.

Enjoy your next box.

Edited by Dino58 - 01 Oct 2020 at 7:12am
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 7:02am
Originally posted by Cretae

With AMD CPUs, the air option is the very highly thought of Wraith cooler that comes stock with the AMD procs.

With the Lynx, customers can get that RGB you don't care for essentially free as it comes with the case.

I would prefer the Lumos. It's expensive to light it up, so don't. IMHO the 10700K is your choice for CPU. Should easily last 8 years as long as it doesn't die, and we both know the mostly don't. The other two 10 cores are barely any faster (1-2%) and they don't bring anything to gaming for the extra $$. The Intel is about 10% faster than a Ryzen.

Be sure to select an NVMe M.2 SSD for your primary drive. They run on the PCIe bus at 5 times the speed of a SATA drive. The DS Performance M.2s are SATA. Choose NVMe.


I hear you on the NVMe. This forum keyed me to to do some research, and there's a clear difference. I'm looking forward to an SSD. My current beast takes over five minutes to boot fully.

Can you describe the Lumos case in 360? I don't like glass in cases, and the photos on the site do a poor job of showing the thing from every angle. Also, internally, does the front panel allow through-and-through horizontal airflow? Or is the case designed mostly as a vertical flow?
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  Quote Spartacii Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 8:53am
I wish that DS would offer more exterior finish painting options like they used to and their main boutique competitors still do.

The Velox case is very nice looking and it has proper front ventilation but is too big for my needs & I'm not enamored of its upside down motherboard orientation.

I have two Bolt systems for the office and besides how tight space is to work around, I hate the recessed I/O in the back. It makes it hard to plug and unplug things specially the ethernet cable.

The Lumos is so pretty but because of the tempered glass sides and front, it's also very heavy and there's danger of breaking in transit. I have seen videos on Youtube of people getting broken glass panels when ordering Lumos systems. Also, the glass front panel does indeed limit airflow which negates the possible temperature benefit of an AIO when compared to a ventilated front case with air cooler.

That leaves just the Lynx which although it has proper front ventilation and is small enough for my needs, it just looks...okay.

All my 6 DS systems are air cooled, 4 of them with those huge ugly beige Noctua coolers and my oldest system from 2010 with a Noctua is still going strong despite 8-10 hours a day use and looks like it will run for another decade. No AIO is gonna give me that.

Although I love Intel CPUs and specially Nivdia GPUs, I'm waiting for Zen 3 and Big Navi. Rumors are that Big Navi 6900x & 6950x will be competitive with and might even surpass the Ampere 3080 while running cooler and being cheaper and since all my displays work with Freesync but not Gsync, it makes sense for me to go with an AMD GPU this generation.

Leaks say that Zen 3 will be on sale by the third week of October and that Big Navi will be on sale by the middle of November so I will just wait for any Black Friday sales that DS might offer & pull the trigger then.

I was thinking of waiting another year to year and a half for Zen 4 and DDR5 but initial DDR5 is going to be at most, as fast as latest DDR4 and it will take 2 or 3 cycles to iron out all the bugs and growing pains so that means waiting to upgrade until not 2022 when Zen 4 comes out but 2024 instead and that's just too long so I will definitely upgrade this cycle instead with Zen 3.

Yeah, no other upgrade has given me a greater sense of improvement that going from a regular hardrive to an SSD.
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  Quote Bob100 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 2:38pm
Yes, the Lumos case is glass all around, all 4 sides and the top. I find it to be very attractive, lit or unlit. The glass appears to have a very subtle smokey tint to it, i.e., it is not perfectly clear - personally, I like this tinting effect.

The case also has a lot of interior space with great air flow through the 5/8" gaps between glass panels.

Here is a picture of mine with the air cooler installed.
[/IMG]
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by Spartacii

I wish that DS would offer more exterior finish painting options like they used to and their main boutique competitors still do.
The Velox case is very nice looking and it has proper front ventilation but is too big for my needs & I'm not enamored of its upside down motherboard orientation.
I have two Bolt systems for the office and besides how tight space is to work around, I hate the recessed I/O in the back. It makes it hard to plug and unplug things specially the ethernet cable.
The Lumos is so pretty but because of the tempered glass sides and front, it's also very heavy and there's danger of breaking in transit. I have seen videos on Youtube of people getting broken glass panels when ordering Lumos systems. Also, the glass front panel does indeed limit airflow which negates the possible temperature benefit of an AIO when compared to a ventilated front case with air cooler.
That leaves just the Lynx which although it has proper front ventilation and is small enough for my needs, it just looks...okay.
All my 6 DS systems are air cooled, 4 of them with those huge ugly beige Noctua coolers and my oldest system from 2010 with a Noctua is still going strong despite 8-10 hours a day use and looks like it will run for another decade. No AIO is gonna give me that.
Although I love Intel CPUs and specially Nivdia GPUs, I'm waiting for Zen 3 and Big Navi. Rumors are that Big Navi 6900x & 6950x will be competitive with and might even surpass the Ampere 3080 while running cooler and being cheaper and since all my displays work with Freesync but not Gsync, it makes sense for me to go with an AMD GPU this generation.
Leaks say that Zen 3 will be on sale by the third week of October and that Big Navi will be on sale by the middle of November so I will just wait for any Black Friday sales that DS might offer & pull the trigger then.
I was thinking of waiting another year to year and a half for Zen 4 and DDR5 but initial DDR5 is going to be at most, as fast as latest DDR4 and it will take 2 or 3 cycles to iron out all the bugs and growing pains so that means waiting to upgrade until not 2022 when Zen 4 comes out but 2024 instead and that's just too long so I will definitely upgrade this cycle instead with Zen 3.
Yeah, no other upgrade has given me a greater sense of improvement that going from a regular hardrive to an SSD.


It looks like you and I watch the same unboxing videos. I saw one this week where the guy pulled the black bag off the Lumos, and the first thing he saw was a side panel with 2-3 horizontal cracks. You could see him deflate. He pushed ahead with the video, but it wasn't good. I stopped it at that point, but maybe I should go back and watch the end. It might show me a Lumos from all sides.

It looks like you have a HAF X on one of your boxes. I got a Cooler Master full tower on Gus, mostly for the headroom to handle heat, and for all the bays. A CD drive was mandatory, I got two HDDs from DS, and I cannibalized two more from the soon-to-be dead box. I thought back then I would go to two GPUs, but I never did. It was nice to be able to go to Cooler Master's site and get full technical specs, see pictures, know exactly what the case was going to be before I ordered.

The oldest truism in PCs is "if you wait until things stop moving , you'll never buy anything." I have to get a new monitor too, so I can match it to the new GPU. With the new 3000 line of Nvidias I guess prices on the 2000s will fall, but with the inventory snafu at launch probably not soon enough for me to wait that long. Given what I have, anything even semi-modern is going to be Model T to Honda Accord at worst.
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Bob100

Yes, the Lumos case is glass all around, all 4 sides and the top. I find it to be very attractive, lit or unlit. The glass appears to have a very subtle smokey tint to it, i.e., it is not perfectly clear - personally, I like this tinting effect.

The case also has a lot of interior space with great air flow through the 5/8" gaps between glass panels.



A picture is worth 1000 words. Thanks a lot. I didn't know there was an air gap between the panels. This is helpful.

I'm glad you are making air cooling work. The back panel also looks very permeable.

Edited by Dino58 - 01 Oct 2020 at 4:43pm
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  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 4:50am
The Lumos is a Corsair 570X.
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  Quote Dino58 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 5:27am
Originally posted by Cretae

The Lumos is a Corsair 570X.


Thanks. I looked at Corsair's site and there are the pictures I wish DS had. The full 360 is enough to show me this isn't the case for me.
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