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My build and my questions

Post Date: 2008-03-04

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Kain View Drop Down
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  Quote Kain Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: My build and my questions
    Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 12:48pm

I'm going top of the line here and I dont like the 5 to 5.5k pricing on Alienware or Falcon.  I really am impressed with the pricing here and look to make this purchase within the next few weeks...

Keep in mind... I have decent computer knowledge and have made the mistake of purchasing cheap Dells in the past and cramming them with 2 gig ram and a top of the line graphics card... so I want this time to be all about gaming for years and years.

Case: Digital Storm 350Si (Black Edition)

1. Does the case matter if I have liquid cooling? I need to cut costs because of high end hardware and I don't care about the look of a case at all.. I'd bury the damn thing under the floor if I could to be less cluttered.

Power Supply: 1000W SilverStone Strider (Dual SLI Compatible) (Model: ST1000) (Silent)
 
2. I want it quiet and with liquid cooling I dont want the best power supply... just enough for Dual SLI.. and to keep things quiet.

Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad QX9650 Extreme 3.00GHz (1333MHz FSB) (12MB Cache)
 
3. Is this the best for a long term (5-7 years as per the tech. we know now?)  Or will something else be better AND last longer?? (Im only going with Intel btw)

Motherboard: nVidia 780i Core 2 Quad (By: eVGA) (nForce 780i SLI)
 
4. I want among the top 3 motherboards possible to last for the long term.  Is this one of them?.. what is better and best?  4.5k cost is my limit... and I prefer 3500 - 4k at most.

Memory: 4GB DDR2 Corsair at 1066MHz Dominator (Dual Channel) (Extreme-Performance)
 
5. I know we wont see a need for 4GB for a while, and that's okay.. Im getting 64 bit vista and want 4GB.  Whats the best 4GB to get in relation to my other specs without raising price of the build?


Hard Drive 1: 74GB Western Digital Raptor (10K RPM) (8MB Cache) (SATA) (Extreme Speed)
 
6. Do hard drives really make any difference? I dont want/need alot of space.. I play 3-4 high end games on a monthly basis and I have another hard drive for files other than gaming... hopefully there is space for it?
 
Optical Drive 1: DVD-ROM/CD-ROM (DVD Reader 16x / CD Reader 40x)
Optical Drive 2: DVD±R/RW/CD-R/RW (DVD Writer 20x / CD-Writer 48x)
 
7. Im okay with basic cd and dvd roms, no questions here unless you have recommendations.

Network Card: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
 
8. Not too concerned with Network card or ping/lag on what I play... but again, if you have recommendations on how this makes a difference I would greatly appreciate because I do alot of online play.

Video Card: 2x SLI Dual (nVidia GeForce 8800GTX 768MB (By: eVGA) (PCI-Express)
 
9.  Every year I buy one of the top 3 cards and the next year there are 5 better than it.  If I get Duals here of the best out now... when should I expect to upgrade?..and will duals keep me ABLE to upgrade for years to come?   I'm not getting a new monitor YET.. my current one is a stanard 17 inch dell.  But will be getting a nice one eventually and want it to work very seemless on max resolution.

Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer (Recommended)
 
10. I have a 5.1 surround sound philips system for my home theatre.  I also want to buy 5.1 or 7.1 headphones for gaming if that's even possible.  Will this card give me good quality to hear people in CS Source from a mile away? etc. Prior to this, I've used stock sound cards.

Physics Card: Ageia PhysX P1 128MB
 
11. Getting this no matter if it makes a huge diff or not, dont care about the cost.. but I also dunno if it helps justify all the hardware im getting.. or if it just makes the 3d affects look cooler and not demand more hardware in the future.

Cooling: Liquid Chilled FrostBite CPU & Dual Video Cards (Artic Blue Liquid)
 
12. If I get liquid cooling (dont care about colors or seeing it through the box)... can I just get the standard case and not worry about airflow?  or do you recommend a better case anyway? (I really dont care about the look of a case) 

Overclock Processor: - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my processor
Overclock Video Card: - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my video card(s)
Overclock Memory: - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my memory
 
13. Can't this be done by me if I want/need later?  I think my hardware is good enough not to mess with or ask for this and it saves me SOME cash.

Windows OS: Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium (64-Bit Edition) (For Enthusiasts)
 
14. I want 64 bit for the 4 GB ram and maximum life of the computer.  Whats the downfall in doing this aside from cost?  Isn't it the best bet?
 
I really appreciate the help... answers to this will really help me decide between Alienware, Falcon or here... because so far this is the best bang for the buck.
I forgot to mention... this is running me around $4,700 and that's really my max.
 
Thanks.


Edited by Kain - 04 Mar 2008 at 1:06pm
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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 1:22pm
The case is more important than just aesthetics.You have hard drives, chipset controllers, voltage regulators, and memory that need to keep cool in addition to the GPU and CPU. You need adequate clearance for a large PCB such as that found on the 8800 series.

If you are looking to cut expense, run SLi 8800GTS rather than 8800GTX. The performance difference is minimal to non existent depending on the application.

That power supply is overkill.  An 850 watt model should do fine.

I would simply not count on any rig, regardless of expense, to keep up with gaming software for 7 years. 5 is *really* pushing it. Having said that, the selection of motherboard and CPU is decent, but the mainboard lacks official 1600 FSB support, which may prove to be a limitation down the road. I would hazard a guess DDR3 will also be the new standard within a year, two at the outside even in mainstream systems. I would concentrate on the here and now, and look for your best values if value for the dollar is what is important to you.

The physics card ... should be a feature you'll see built into every NVidia GPU that supports CUDA if their press release is to be believed. If this is indeed true, purchasing one of these would be like purchasing a 7.1 channel soundcard without an APU when your motherboard came with built in 7.1 channel sound. It's your call, but you're cutting expense in areas that would get you a greater performance gain.

Opinions vary on the HDD's. Some swear by the Raptors, others that own them say they would just get a couple of cheaper 160GB HDD's and put them into RAID 0 if they had it to do over again. Personally, I think it makes very little difference if you have 4GB of RAM to play with. It's not like you're going to have to use virtual RAM all that much. In that sort of configuration, I would drop in a couple of HDD's ignore RAID, and install my OS seperately which keeps things nice and easy if you need to upgrade OS, or re-install it later.

Liquid cooling an overclocked quad and two 8800 series GPU's on the same loop in a cramped case is a recipe for tears.

Upgrading the GPU's later on is easier if they are air cooled. Call and ask DSO what sort of results they have seen with their new stage 3 wind tunnel cooling in the 850i case for the sort of configuration you have in mind.

Yes, overclocking is something you can do for yourself.

There's no real downside to your OS and RAM selections, aside from the fact that some programs will not run in a 64 bit environment, and with only a single OS, you'll have no way around it.


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  Quote Bill the Cat Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 1:34pm
  • There's a good chance DS won't put two 8800 GTXs in a 350i case. You probably should go with an 850i. Don't try to scrimp on the case.
  • Even an 800 W PSU is probably overkill. 1000 W is ridiculous.
  • I have a 150 Gig Raptor. It's very nice, but probably not worth the price. If you really want speed, get a RAID0 setup with bigger 7200 RPM drives and a third drive for backup. Better yet, just get a much bigger 7200 RPM dirve, or two.
  • There's not much point to two optical drive unless you copy a lot of discs. On the other hand, they are cheap.
  • A physics card is a complete waste.
  • I would get XP Pro instead of Vista. A dual boot system is best. Eventually, you will want Vista 64-bit. Now, Vista may work fine for you, or it may not.
  • You can overclock you CPU your self. Overclocking the GPUs probably isn't worth it. Memory is tricky. You might want DS to do that. The nice thing about paying DSO to do the overclocking is that they warrantee the work for 3 years.
3.6 GHz E6850,       4 GB RAM, GTS 250,   TJ9, Win 7 64-bit
4.4 GHz i7 3930K, 16 GB RAM, GTX 670, 550D, Win 7 64-bit
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  Quote Kain Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 1:39pm
Alright, I'll go with the GTS dual sli instead and get a bigger case.
 
I want no limitations on upgrading in there with adding a TV tuner, Firewire, another HDD down the road if I choose and appreciate the advice.
 
"pushing it" at 5 years is okay with me... I don't mind it lasting 4-5 and then just being "okay" until games require me to do this again.  The day I bought my current computer (3.4ghz pent 4, Dell HT with 2 gig ram and a 7800 GTS AGP card with whatever stock motherboard they slapped in)  it was obsolete and out dated and it's gotten me buy for several years... a frustrating several years though!! haha.
 
Im gonna go low on the HDD and still get the physics card strictly just because... and as long as my soundcard is good enough for 7.1 Im good to go.
 
I'll check on the cooling, I am clueless still on that.
 
I'm also going to just go out on a wing and a prayer with the 64 bit OS.  As long as my primary games (new now and new from now onward) and Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop work well... I'm okay with forcing retailers to take my non-working games/software back until Windows starts fixing the bugs or another game comes out.
 
Thanks so much... let me see how low I can get this price, get an answer on cooling for sure... and make my decision.  Very helpful stuff.
 
 
 
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  Quote Slicer Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 4:42pm
 
$4561
 
 
Case: Digital Storm 950Si (Black Anodized Aluminum Finish)
Power Supply: 850W SilverStone Decathlon (Dual SLI Compatible) (Model: DA850) (Silent)
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad QX9650 Extreme 3.00GHz (1333MHz FSB) (12MB Cache)
Motherboard: nVidia 780i Core 2 Quad (By: eVGA) (nForce 780i SLI)
Memory: 4GB DDR2 Corsair at 1066MHz Dominator (Dual Channel) (Extreme-Performance)
Floppy / Card: - No Thanks
Hard Drive 1: 500GB Western Digital (16MB Cache) (7200 RPM) (SATA)
Hard Drive 2: - No Thanks
Raid Option: - No Thanks
Hard Drive 3: - No Thanks
Optical Drive 1: DVD-ROM/CD-ROM (DVD Reader 16x / CD Reader 40x)
Optical Drive 2: DVD±R/RW/CD-R/RW (DVD Writer 20x / CD-Writer 48x)
Network Card: High Speed Network Port (Supports High-Speed Cable / DSL / Network Connections)
Video Card: 2x SLI Dual (nVidia GeForce 8800GT 512MB (By: eVGA) (PCI-Express)
TV Tuner: - No Thanks
Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer (Recommended)
Physics Card: Ageia PhysX P1 128MB
Cooling: Liquid Chilled FrostBite Dual Loop System for CPU & Dual Video Cards
Case Lighting: Blizzard Internal Lighting (Blue Edition) (Cold Cathode Tubes)
Round Cables: - No Thanks
User Manual: Personalized Platinum Digital Storm Binder (Includes Paperwork/Benchmarks/CDs/Manuals)
Overclock Processor: - No Thanks, Please do not overclock my processor
Overclock Video Card: Yes, Overclock the video card(s) as much as possible with complete stability
Overclock Memory: Yes, Overclock the memory timings (Includes Corsair Dominator Airflow Fan)
Tweak Windows: - No Thanks, Please do not tweak the services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium (64-Bit Edition) (For Enthusiasts)
Restore Kit: Digital Storm Specialized Recovery System (DVD Image Based)
Protection: - No Thanks
Office: - No Thanks
Benchmarking: - No Thanks
Pre-Install Game: - No Thanks
LCD Display: - No Thanks
Surge Shield: - No Thanks
Speakers: - No Thanks
Keyboard: - No Thanks
Mouse: - No Thanks
Warranty: 3 Year Platinum Care Extended Parts & Labor Warranty
Support: Lifetime Toll-Free Platinum Care Technical Support
 
 
Put this together for you with some observations, the 8800GT 512 Overclocked seems to have pretty equal performance to the GTS and GTX's in overall FPS according to the scorecharts on tom's.  Some games better than others but in terms of pricing and staying within budget I would opt for the GT's and upgrade your cooling to a dual loop system, especially if you plan on OC'ing your CPU yourself (personally I would pay DS to do it along with the other OC's of ram timings and vid cards).

Keeping with your own personal thoughts and moving forward I included your Physics card and sound card (2 steps above 7.1 onboard), your 64 bit vista, and gave you 1 hard drive that is large enough to store your info, though as most suggest it would be wise to have multiple drives for backup etc.

Personally I think you could sacrifice the physics card and invest in another hard drive or two and setup in raid.  But without question I would not try running an SLI setup with OC'd ram, cpu and 768mb cards without DUAL LOOP COOLING.
 
Here is a good chart to show the differences in certain games, benchmarks etc. sometimes price vs performance ratio doesn't always mean getting the latest and greatest video cards when the money can improve your system performance in cooling and oc'ing.
 
 
Of course I'm a rookie to the boards and not a seasoned vet like many on here, but I've been studying for the past few months very heavily into making my new DS system and the more I learn about compenents, setups and optimizing for performance the more I enjoy putting forth a little community opinion if not to just play devil's advocate Wink
 

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  Quote Kain Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 9:23pm

Thanks I appreciate the advice and taking the time to give your recommendations.

I cut out the Physics card, hopefully the box has room for upgraded ones down the road though.

I was also able to cut some more fat and get this right at $4,000... with a small HDD and CPU only liquid cooling.  Still in progress.. not making a decision on this for 1 or 2 weeks but it looks like I'll be buying from Digital Storm at least :)

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  Quote SunfighterLC Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 9:45pm

id consider waiting at checking out the 9800GX2 cards that should be coming out with in the next month or two.

Good you dumped the phx card though, thats a total waste of money.
 
Honestly if youre gonna get 64 bit why not dump the money saved from the phyx into say...8GB of memory....yea thats super overkill and you wont need it mostly right now, but who knows 2-3-4 years down the road like you said you wanted this thing to last that long.
 
thats the build im working on now (like the 40th ive made on this site since finding it haha, still waiting to buy in late march/april). Its duel 8800GTs and 8GB ram and vista 64, stage 3 air cooling etc..its only around 2200-2300 bucks. Personally I like the 8400 (i wish they had 8500's here, but no luck) chips over the quad cores, more from their overclocking ability, quad core is probably best for the future though as more games begin to support it.
 
You might need to ask DS, but i think with your build, at least the NON duel 8800 GTX's you can probably go as slow as a 620W power supply and be alright. As you can see im a stickler for squeezing the most bang out the buck haha.
 
Plus you can save 9 bucks if you dont get that silly light on the inside, but only if you dont care about 'bling' factor..i mean its alright if you wanna work on the inside of your computer and all..but honestly, who doesnt have a flashlight or any light for that matter.
 
Im personally going for the 750i case too...it saves 190 bucks, and while its airflow is far inferior to the other 2 cases (850,950) they do a case mod for 35 bucks that removes a couple of the CD drive bay ports and they put in a grill with a fan behind it. It brings the system at least up to enough air flow to make sure things are okay. Plus i live in a dusty area, so too much airflow wouldnt be a good thing honestly.
 
(I still dont understand why they havent put air filters on computer cases yet.)
 
 
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  Quote skyR Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 10:00pm
The 9800GX2 is just two GTS in SLI.. nothing special.
The only thing that keeps me wishing on a wishing star.
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  Quote SunfighterLC Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 10:12pm
but its in one slot. From what i hear SLI while improving performance obviously, it isnt as efficent as a GX2 would be, since some of the performance of the 2nd card is lost in SLI.
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  Quote SunfighterLC Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Mar 2008 at 11:02pm
By that way thats just what ive gotten out of reading up on it and SLI. I could be totally wrong,im a novice at best when it comes to this tech crap. I just read up a lot on it when im about to dump some money into it haha. Ive learned how to research well....my problem has always been trying to find quality advisors for information.
 
Plus having to 512MB cards together still equals 512MB video ram, not 1GB. This card has 1GB, in which im assuming...more is better.
 
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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Mar 2008 at 2:52am
More is not always better. For example, MSI now has plans to release a graphics card with 2GB of GDDR3. The card should perform exactly as the version with 512MB of GDDR3, but as a marketing tool, that more is better mentality is sure to sell some product for MSI.

The 9800x2 should be a 512MBx2 configuration, which is *exactly* the same as having 2 8800GT's. This should not be much of a surprise since the x2 is basically two graphics cards shoved into the same plastic fan shroud. I believe the stock GPU clocks are set to more closely mirror the 8800GT than the 8800GTS.

Don't get me wrong, the card should be very powerful, but unless it's cheaper than running 2 8800GT's in SLI, it's nothing that would interest me. I see that card as having an apeal to people that want to run quad SLI, and for people that want to use an Intel based motherboard and still have access to SLI.

My apologies to Kain for the off topic comments.

Kain, benchmarks run in an open air environment are one thing (such as the way Tom's Hardware conducts their testing). Running components inside a computer case, even one optimized for good cooling is quite another. The 8800GT is a great buy if you do decide to run dual loop liquid cooling. The 8800GTS is a better buy IMO if you intend to air cool the GPU's.

Three configurations featuring a dual OS installation:

Dual Loop Liquid Cooled System $4616

Liquid Cooled CPU Only $4247

100% Air Cooled System $3989

Edited by Tyler Lowe - 05 Mar 2008 at 3:06am
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  Quote Kain Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Mar 2008 at 11:12am
Hey, that's alright... there is no apology needed.  Any conversation about the current technology is good information right now.  Especially since it's in relation to what's available on Digital Storm and to keep in line with my pricing.  Alienware and Falcon have less options (such as 64 bit vista and some better hardware) and are still $1,000 more.
 
I noticed on all of those you put a 3rd HDD and XP combined with Vista 64bit (Due to compatibility concerns I imagine)   I took off the 3rd HDD and really only have questions remaining in 2 areas.
 
1. Cooling (performance and silence)-- Im getting 2xSLI... Whether it's 8800 GT 512, 8800 GTS 512, or 8800 GTX/Ultra at 768.  I don't want an air-cooled system because I want to reduce noise and also can't stand the heat the system shoots out. (Although currently it helps with my heating bill here in Michigan)
 
Point blank... with the 2xSLI (any) above... should I get liquid cooling on the cards for maximum silence/performance.... or will just the CPU make it just as quiet?  (Also factor in the fact that 3 years down the road, I might upgrade to 2 better video cards)
 
2. Memory and Video Cards
 
Is there room in the box to upgrade to 8G ram down the road? Or just 4... since I'm shooting for 5+ years here.. I want to add memory and new cards to get maximum life... (I'll decide if it's more worth it to buy a new PC at the time, but now I just want the possibility)
 
When/if I upgrade to new cards (2xSLI) The only factor is money correct?  Will I be limited in upgraded cards that will fit into the slots within the next 3 years?
 
If there isn't a need or a difference for long term use on something, that's all I need to know at this point. Cooling and Video Cards are the only thing in question now (other than the whole 2 HDD and Vista 64bit + XP issue) which I'll address as my LAST question later on, I swear.

After getting all of this information, I'll finalize my build and once I get some advice, I'll submit... since it appears I get the best bang for the buck here.. and alot of help.
 
Thanks.
 
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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Mar 2008 at 11:45am
One point I want to make about the heat: You will give off the same amount of heat no matter whether or not you use liquid or air. The computer is generating a set amount of heat, and it is going to radiate that energy (hopefully as efficiently as possible), there is no way around that.

Another point about the air cooling. Stage 3 is 120mm Scythe S-Flex fans. If you are accustomed to a bunch of cheap 80mm fans like you find cooling a Dell, you won't believe how much noise you don't hear anymore when standing next to a unit cooled with high quality 120mm's. Larger fans = less noise. Should you opt to have your GPU's air cooled, the fans on the GPU's will be louder than the fans DSO uses in the stage 3 cooling.

Note to DSO: "Wind tunnel" does not elicit a vision of whisper quiet operation.

Having said this, should you opt to run liquid cooling, if noise is a very high priority, go dual loop. That way you won't have noisy GPU fans, only the hum of pumps, and a couple of 120mm fans on the radiators.

I go back to the air cooling once again when the question of upgrade comes up, as it is *much* easier to upgrade an air cooled system with new cards.

On the memory, as long as DSO uses a 2x2GB RAM kit, and not a 4x1GB kit, yes, upgrading to 8GB will be easy enough.

The Three HDD's were set in those confiogs to provide a performance boost from RAID and a seperate OS installation.

I posted some charts and further explanation of that HDD layout in this thread.
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  Quote Kain Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Mar 2008 at 12:45pm
 
Thanks, im going to opt for Air Cooled so that upgrading isn't an issue later.  I hope this doesn't come back to bite me by not getting liquid in the 850i case.  I think it will be quiet compared to what i'm used to no matter what, like you said.
 
 
Only concern now is that it looks like a 4x1GB kit is used according to this info button next to memory on the build and I want to be able to upgrade to 8GB.
 
 
 

4GB Corsair 1066mhz DDR2 Ram

Features

For serious gamers and industry specific professionals alike, this is the highest grade memory we offer. Offering cutting edge DHX (Dual-path Heat Xchange) technology, this memory keeps it's cool while delivering the utmost highest performance possible.

Benefits

Boasting EPP (Enhanced Performance Profiles) which can handle clock speed, CAS latency, tRCD, tRP, tRAS, memory voltage, and command rate for you extreme gamers.

Specifications

Brand
CORSAIR
Series Dominator
Model TWIN2X2048-8500C5D x2
Type 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM
Capacity 4GB (4 x 1GB)
Speed DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)
Cas Latency 5
Timing 5-5-5-15
Heat spreader Yes
Features DHX (Dual-path Heat Xchange), EPP (Enhanced Performance Profiles), SLI certified
Form Factor 3.5''
Recommended Use Gaming Memory


Edited by Kain - 05 Mar 2008 at 12:48pm
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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Mar 2008 at 1:02pm
DSO will accept special requests. If you want a 2x2GB RAM kit, call and ask for it. Also, they have paid experts to answer your questions. This isn't like some other computer companies where you find yourself connected to someone in India reading off a script. These guys know their .

Before you place your order, get your final configuration draft together, and call DSO. Talk to one of the guys there and discuss your upgrade plans and personal requirements for the system. You'll get straight answers to your questions, and they may catch something that's been overlooked.
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  Quote grooverider Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Mar 2008 at 2:51pm
Not to hijack, and on topic but..
 
If you plan to run your machine 24-7, would liquid cooling or air cooling be the best solution?  I would also like something that is not noisy.
 
I plan on running Apache Webserver on my new PC for kicks, thats why I'm asking. 
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  Quote ColoradoKevin Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Mar 2008 at 3:20pm
I think that would depend on the machine but a good air cooled system will work even left on 24X7. 
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  Quote Kain Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Mar 2008 at 2:03pm
My last question... why can't I upgrade to 8GB down the road if they use 4x1GB memory slots instead of 2x2 GB slots for the 4GB I'm getting now?
 
Everything else has been clarified and I make my order within the next 2 weeks.
 
Thanks.
 
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  Quote skyR Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Mar 2008 at 2:10pm
The motherboard only has 4 ram slots so using 4x1 would fill up all those slots while using 2x2 only fills up 2 and you can add another 2x2 down the road.
The only thing that keeps me wishing on a wishing star.
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  Quote Kain Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Mar 2008 at 6:54pm
Or I could throw all 4  out and replace with 4x2...yes?
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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 08 Mar 2008 at 12:31am
Lol, yes, or you could send them my way.
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