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need NEW DS comp, but am I crazy?

Post Date: 2019-11-03

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Manbearpig View Drop Down
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  Quote Manbearpig Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: need NEW DS comp, but am I crazy?
    Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 8:19am
Budget:
$1500+ (Or what would it actually cost for what i want)

Expectations:
No problems powering a 75” Vizio P-series, F1 LED 4K, HDR TV. (And an older 65” Samsung plasma). These are only occasionally as I travel, otherwise it will b a 27” Dell monitor (not 4k).

Usage:
Mostly Civ 6 — at highest res — and any expansions for at least a couple of years. And usual browsing, educational research, etc.

Special Needs:
I know a PC is better for for this but I will need to move the rig often so a laptop Is really what I'm hoping to use. Or a very compact PC. I assume heat and noise would b the limiting factors for a laptop.

If my hopes are not based in reality, pls let me down slow.

Thanks in advance. This community helped me out a lot when i bought my first DS rig years ago. Setting me straight on several things.
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HockeyBuck View Drop Down
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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 11:37am
Lol.   It’s challenging enough for DS to ship brand new rigs without shipping damage, so no...PC’s definitely do not handle frequent moves very well.    That said, for driving your big 75” 4K display at high game settings I would normally suggest a PC with an NVidia RTX 2080 Super or RTX 2080 Ti video card.    You seem to need the stronger graphics performance of a pc when away from home with the big screen 4K TV ....but for travel you definitely would need a good laptop.    

The graphics of the Civics game you play are not all that demanding,    
The DS 15” Nova or 17” Avon laptops use the excellent all around mid range NVidia RTX 2070 8 GB VRAM video card as the only option.    The RTX 2070 is a solid choice when using a 1080P or 1440P resolution display like your 27” playing with high or medium game settings.    It can do 4K, but game settings would likely need to be reduced.    Take a look at the Avon laptop as best compromise.   

Edited by HockeyBuck - 03 Nov 2019 at 11:42am
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  Quote Manbearpig Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 10:41am
Thanks HockeyBuck.

So either i get a Bolt w an upgraded video card for $769 — $1,342 and hope I can keep it safe in the car for several hours a month or get the most powerful laptop and cut back on graphics?

Hmmm. I don't want the game to look like crap while 12’ away from the 75” tv, but i cant afford that cost bump.

Maybe a compromise. A Bolt w as high gpu i can afford and, maybe, keep the box it's shipped in?!

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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 1:07pm
Yeah the budget would need to come up.   For a Bolt X...double.    I would still say you should use a laptop.    Laptops do travel well.   While DS isn’t currently offering laptops using a mobile RTX 2080, I have heard of some other companies Laptops that do..   

Some stuff to understand about BoltX...

First, as I said PC do not travel well, especially once a month+, even w original packing.    Components get moved or shifted, or could break.    It would not be unusual, once moved again and set up, to have issues to solve caused by moving it so often.   

Bolt is a very slick hybrid engineered design Small Form Factor (SFF) PC.
It can weigh as much as 30 Lbs.... while a 17” laptop may weigh 5 1/2 lbs.
Bolt X has lots of happy customers that love them, but they for the most part don’t lug it around monthly to other destinations and back...lol.   

It is a full PC reduced to bare minimum size.    There are size and or heat output compromises on components that may be used in a SFF design...Uses proprietary PSU, fans due to size limitations for components.    Uses a Micro ITX sized motherboard, so it will not have as many ports, slots and features as full sized ATX motherboard PC’s have.   Also...compared with roomy full size rigs, SFF rigs will be more challenging for you to work on or fix yourself

Because Bolt X is a very small enclosed case, component heat and minimal fan airflow are always issues of concern as with all SFF rigs.    Best possible HydroLux Light liquid cooling for BOTH CPU & GPU are strongly recommended to mitigate heat issues at full load.    Ambient room temps can be a concern as well if room temps are hot at your destination.   Those key selections do stretch that budget of yours further.

After considering all of that, if you decide you do want to risk a Bolt X for travel...it’s correct that you could utilize a much stronger NVidia RTX 2080 Super 8 GB VRAM or top of the line RTX 2080 Ti 11 GB VRAM card by using Bolt X.   Properly cooled, Bolt X can game just as well at 4K as a full sized PC using the RTX 2080 or 2080 Ti.
I prepared a Config for Bolt X using the RTX 2080 Super.    The RTX 2080 Ti is the very best choice for 4K at Ultra settings and would add another $650 or so. I used the plexiglass window...the tempered glass window upgrade is +$29 but adds some weight. Be aware that this case is available painted in colors as an upgrade option for +$149.

Bolt X   Config # 2694872.   $3355. minus DS Sale $300 OFF = $3,055 Total

Intel I7-9700K 8-core CPU with FREE DS Stage One Overclock to 4.7 MHz

ASUS Z390-I ROG Strix Gaming Mini ITX motherboard w/ WIFI

Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB. 16 GB RAM. 3000 MHz

HydroLux Pro Lite Cooler CPU + GPU....Flex Tubing / Clear Coolant

DS 700 watt Platinum Efficiency all modular PSU

stock case clear acrylic side windows

Samsung Evo 970 Pro 500 GB M.2 NVME SSD Drive 1

DS 2 TB SATA III HHD Storage Drive 2

Free DS RGB Case Lights w/ remote

/////////////////////

Here’s a DS Avon 17” laptop Config using the best available RTX 2070 GPU. Does not include a carry case, extra battery or extra charger you might want.

Avon Config # 2694910. $ 2,633

17.3” IPS    1920 X 1080 1440 Hz Refresh Rate   display

Intel I7-9750-H. 6-core CPU. 4.5 gHz

DS 16 GB DDR4 RAM 2666 MHz

NVidia RTX 2070 8 GB VRAM. Mobile GPU

Samsung Evo 970 Pro 500 GB M.2 NVME SSD. Drive 1

Samsung Evo 970 2 TB Drive 2

Intel Wireless-AC 9560 (Gigabit Wi-Fi) + Bluetooth 5.0


See what you think...let us know what you decide to do.   
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  Quote Manbearpig Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 6:34pm
So u think the laptop could run the 75” tv on lower settings for civ? Can the cooling on the laptop handle the load? It has to have more trouble than even the bolt at dissipating all the heat.

Playing Civ is not for having a laptop on ur actual lap — it's for a large screen and a lazy mouse hand while laying down on the couch.

And thanks for the work up of the 2 configs!
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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Nov 2019 at 9:20pm
You do present quite a tough challenge for a mobile RTX 2070...not just a normal monitor at 4K...but a max size 75” 4K panel.   

It’s a task best done using a PC with RTX 2080 Ti with 11 GB VRAM with a larger number of GPU cores to help process...gets you max Ultra game settings.    RTX 2080 Super with 8 GB and fewer GPU cores can do it well but probably at High settings.    These are the GPU you need for gaming at 4K.

On the Avon 17” laptop we would be on the non-Super mobile RTX 2070 8 GB VRAM and I suspect game settings may be at medium or low running that big 75” 4K panel.    It’s definitely not what I would recommend to expect to run 4K on any monitor and impress.    Civics doesn't require much to run, but something more demanding might not run in 4K on the big 75” panel at all.
Maybe a forum member that has tried gaming a 2070 laptop and a big 4K panel will tell us, but you could try discussing that with DS Sales.   

I’m doubtful the frame rates at 4K would meet expectations, and several tech reviews say flat out not recommended beyond 1440P resolution.     Yes it may also get quite warm under max gaming load, but all gaming laptops tend to get warm at load.    There are laptop cooling multi fan pads some people use to assist in cooling gaming laptops.




Edited by HockeyBuck - 04 Nov 2019 at 9:33pm
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  Quote Manbearpig Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Nov 2019 at 6:03am
Thanks, HockeyBuck. Ill wait a bit for my budget to increase and the needed hardware to decrease.
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  Quote Manbearpig Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Nov 2019 at 9:09am
Hey HockeyBuck, sorry to bother, but ur the only help I' have. Good news, for me, my budget has doubled and I wont b moving the computer around, so no laptop or SFF case.

Based on ur prev recommendations, Ive been playing w configs w RTX 2080 Ti 11GB, and the rest of the hardware u suggested, but I still need some knowledge.

So, for Civ on max settings on a 75” LED 4k, UHD Vizio tv, with a budget of $3000+, which is better? I dont need anything flashy - function over form i always say!

— Lynx, Lumos, or Velox? bigger cases are better for air flow & ease of upgrades?
— bigger case is quieter?
— at least 700 watt PSU is needed for the RTX 2080 Ti 11GB?
— is a GPU cooler needed? I dont see reasonable prices to do this?
— maybe a different CPU or MOBO? I know nothing of what makes a better MOBO.
— are 2 lesser GPUs better than just a single high-end one?

I'll wait til black Fri or cyber Mon in hopes of an even better price, but im gonna buy asap. Thanks again!
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  Quote Setitimer Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Nov 2019 at 10:12am
Civilization VI will easily be able to run at 4K with a 2080 Super and a i7 9700K.  Note that the physical size of the screen has absolutely nothing to do with whether your card can run the game well.  The only thing that matters is the screen resolution.  It takes the same effort for the GPU to run the game on a 4K 27" monitor as on a 4K 75" screen.

To answer your questions:
- Lynx is fine, it's a well ventilated case.  Bigger cases are definitely easier to work with if you upgrade things later, and better for ventilation.
- Bigger cases are not necessarily quieter.  But if you upgrade to the Corsair ML fans, you'll minimize fan noise.
- I'd go with a Corsair RM850X.  Plenty of power and better warranty than the DS units.
- GPU cooler is not needed.
- Your CPU is fine.  I would not recommend a mini ITX board, they are crowded and less expandable.  Get one of the full size ones.
- Many games do not support SLI, so a single faster GPU is still better than two lesser ones.  I would get a 2080 Super in your situation.  The 2080ti doesn't perform sufficiently better at 4K to justify the huge price difference.
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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Nov 2019 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Manbearpig

Hey HockeyBuck, sorry to bother, but ur the only help I' have. Good news, for me, my budget has doubled and I wont b moving the computer around, so no laptop or SFF case.

Based on ur prev recommendations, Ive been playing w configs w RTX 2080 Ti 11GB, and the rest of the hardware u suggested, but I still need some knowledge.

So, for Civ on max settings on a 75” LED 4k, UHD Vizio tv, with a budget of $3000+, which is better? I dont need anything flashy - function over form i always say!

— Lynx, Lumos, or Velox? bigger cases are better for air flow & ease of upgrades?
— bigger case is quieter?
— at least 700 watt PSU is needed for the RTX 2080 Ti 11GB?
— is a GPU cooler needed? I dont see reasonable prices to do this?
— maybe a different CPU or MOBO? I know nothing of what makes a better MOBO.
— are 2 lesser GPUs better than just a single high-end one?

I'll wait til black Fri or cyber Mon in hopes of an even better price, but im gonna buy asap. Thanks again!

________________________________________________
Great! Glad to lend a hand...Here is what I would suggest for you now.

— Lumos (Corsair Crystal 970X case) is an excellent ATX mid tower case...
     beautiful view of components and RGB fans...quiet...roomy enough ...excellent
     airflow.    Main window is on normal left side with GPU in cooler bottom of case..   
     I have a Lumos 2019 build with the LL Corsair fans my son uses in a
     bedroom...and you simply can’t hear it.   Lumos is available now...so no delays.
     
     Velox is a few inches larger, +$200 more, and DS has been delayed getting their     
     shipment for weeks now by US Customs...lots of DS orders waiting to build...
     should arrive soon.    It can also be had painted white, blue or red for an
     up charge, which is unusual.   Good airflow, plenty roomy, more plain look.   This
     case puts the mobo upside down, so GPU at the warmer top, main window on
     right side.   On air cooled GPU I myself would not prefer this arrangement unless
     water cooling the GPU...prob about a degree or two C difference for top GPU on
     air, so I usually encourage people to go full HydroLux Pro water cool with a top
     mount GPU for best temps.   

—Corsair HX850 850w Gold Efficiency modular PSU will do the job for 1X GPU.   
    If you want the option to be able to add a second GPU in future if needed, then
    go with the best Corsair AX1200I 1200w modular Digital Platinum Efficiency PSU.
    The Corsair 850w has a 5 yr warranty...the 1200w carries a big 10 yr warranty...

—I think you will be fine without a full CPU + GPU cooling investment in Lumos or
    Velox.   Lumos would be better.    If your budget will handle it, you definitely would
    get better temps, better performance & better component longevity from both
    your CPU and GPU being cooled stronger but it is pricy at about $600 more.   
    Yearly coolant top offs are simple to pour in....in several years down the road a
     coolant drain and flush may be needed but I have gone 7 years with clean
     coolant & only top offs in my DS 2012 rig.

—In this case I think for CPU the top dog for gaming is the I9-9900K 8-core 16-
    thread and your budget can handle it.   If you need to scrimp, the I7-9700K 8-core
    8-thread is neck & neck with the 9900K in gaming performance and just a bit
    cheaper.    There is a new version CPU just released ... the I9-9900KS...8-core
    16- thread with a slightly higher stock clock but too new to say how it
    compares to either of the accepted top dogs yet.    I would counsel staying with
    the well known I9-9900K and have DS Overclock it to Stage 2 and get all the
    performance out of that excellent processor.   

—Multi GPU SLI/NSync can sometimes offer 10-15% better performance if the
    games you play support SLI and scale well.    Not all games can make use of
    SLI.    Used to be a bigger deal, but now I think single GPU solutions are
    cheaper, more simple to use, easier to cool and all that make the next GPU
    upgrade easier to accomplish as well    NVidia has said they will keep the RTX
    2080 Ti 11 GB VRAM as their top consumer gaming GPU for the next year, but
    they will have a new top GPU out in a couple years...and we gamers always will    
    want it...lol...weather we need it or not.   Go with 1X RTX 2080 Ti and that will get
    you the best 4K performance available for the next several years to come.

Lumos Build1. Config # 2709002. $4,095 minus DS Sale $400 Off = $3,695
    This build emphasizes top CPU, GPU, roomy top speed M.2 NVME SSD Drive 1,
     on a very solid mobo, and sealed no maintenance AIO 280 MM CPU Cooler.   
     32 GB RAM is a wise splurge over the required 16 GB with RAM currently so
     inexpensive...all you will ever need.   Solid performing Corsair Vengeance RAM
     has long warranty and RGB lighting that can sync with the Corsair LL fans and
     Corsair cooler using the Corsair iCUE software to show some visual
     personality that can be changed whenever you like...or to turn lights off..lol
     * If you require WIFI, go with the MSI Z390 Pro Carbon or the very best Asus
     Z390 ROG Maximus XI Hero mobo which has a Q-Code screen on the board to
     provide number coded diagnostics if any mobo problems should arise.

Velox Build1. Config # 2709019    $4,254 minus DS Sale $400 Off = $3,854
    Same build in Velox case.    Painted case would add $149 and may be in stock
    now...while the standard black Velox case shipment has been delayed weeks
    now by US Customs...and many black Velox builds are delayed ahead of you.
    

It’s about +$600 to go full HydroLux Pro CPU + 1 GPU if you wish the very best cooling in either Lumos or Velox.    .Very dependable.   If you go this route, ask DS for a drain valve and all quick disconnect fittings to make future GPU changes or maintenance easy.   

See what you think....not sure waiting would get the deal much sweeter than current DS promo...and holidays crush may delay the build getting to you...Let us know what you go with !    Civics is going to play awesome on this top performance build!


Edited by HockeyBuck - 12 Nov 2019 at 2:39pm
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Cretae View Drop Down
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  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: Yesterday at 4:40am
A load of very good info here. Kudos.

Couple of things. A 4K 75" TV sounds daunting, but the pixel count is still 4K. Civ is about as static as a game can be, so high frame rates are not needed. I agree with Setitimer that a 2080 SUPER would do you. The almost $600 premium for the Ti will only get you frame rates, which means what on a TV? If you have more active gaming in mind some day, maybe you go for it, but maybe you see what comes out in a year while you play the best Civ you ever have? The 2X anything is wasted.

You can get custom loop cooling if you like, but won't need it. You won't need 32GB of RAM either. HB is correct that its at a lower price point right now, but it's also really easy to add if you ever need to. If your needs don't change, you won't.

My mobo pick would be ROG Strix or Pro Carbon (built-in WIFI).

I wouldn't wait. I ordered last Cyber Monday, took delivery on Jan 4th, and what I got was free shipping and an extra year of warranty. The money off and free shipping on now is being advertised as the "Early Black Friday Sale", and worth at least as much IMHO.
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  Quote Manbearpig Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: Yesterday at 6:47am
Ha, i was gonna pull the trigger last night on HockeyBuck’s Lumos build. Was approved for financing, but i 2nd guessed (and 3rd and 4th) as i always do. And 2 more kind soles have provided more more info, which makes me 5th and 6th guess — im not a fence sitter, btw, just a person who wants to know all there is to know about a thing, but i cant, so i read more and more and more, which brings me to u fine people.

I haven't mentioned but i used to play Battlefield, which i wouldn't b apposed to dabbling in at some point. I assume then that the Ti would do?

As for a diff mobo, i know nothing of mobos other than to make sure the socket fits ur cpu, but im sure ds knows that! I assume wifi is good to have?

Future proofing is a motivation, but i have done some upgrades to my old ds (2010!!) along the way. It still does what i need.
— replaced 80gb SSD, which was a lot of $ at the time, w 250gb
— replaced, and doubled RAM, which was a pain since it was 6gb on 3 sticks so i had to find a set of 3 sticks
— replaced GTX 480 1.5gb w a 760 (or 780?)

So, final questions knowing i can stay at this price....

— will Ti run BF on the big screen at a decent frame rate and resolution?
— will 32gb of RAM actually bottleneck if not needed (I read this somewhere)?
— i assume the wifi Pro Carbon is so any wifi device usually connected by cable (printer, speakers, phone) would be cable free?
— would 2x 500gb SSDs be better option than a single 1tb SSD? One for OS, games, etc and the other for storage? Im never gonna store that much. Really just dog pics, which are backed up.

After this round of Qs, ill buy. Wont wait as u have all suggested!!

Big thanks to HockeyBuck, Setitimer, and now, Cretae.
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  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: Yesterday at 10:07am
Your 4K TV will not play beyond 60 fps. With an RTX 2080 SUPER, Battlefield 1 in 4k Ultra settings can reach up to 88 fps. Battlefield 5 would reach 75 fps. Your game would be capped at 60 fps, so you have no need to spend the extra money. There a handful of games that play in 4k Ultra below 60 fps, but they are so poorly optimized, or so demanding in some other way, they usually play under 60 fps with the 2080 Ti. You see differences like 50 vs 56.9 in Total War: Warhammer for example. Or 56 vs 61.5 in Assasssin's Creed: Origins. Not a difference I would pay $573 for. 50 fps is perfectly acceptable.

I don't know about 32GB of RAM bottlenecking, but you don't need it anyway.

Yes, the PRO Carbon will help you eliminate cables if you wish, (and your WiFi router is good).

It's really easy to add storage later as needed. You do not need an SSD just to store data or pictures. If you want one anyway, I'd buy my own SATA drive online and install it. NVMe is for super fast response for things like scans, and processing. If you think 500GB is enough for your games, get that and the HDD. Obviously you are paying a mark up as they install it for you. If you may not need something so simple to install as storage, you don't have to get it now.

If you still have doubts about the 2080 Ti, Google 2080 SUPER vs 2080 Ti and have a ball. It's about 22% faster, but that hardly effects you very much if at all IMO.

Hope it helps.
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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: Yesterday at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Manbearpig

Ha, i was gonna pull the trigger last night on HockeyBuck’s Lumos build. Was approved for financing, but i 2nd guessed (and 3rd and 4th) as i always do. And 2 more kind soles have provided more more info, which makes me 5th and 6th guess — im not a fence sitter, btw, just a person who wants to know all there is to know about a thing, but i cant, so i read more and more and more, which brings me to u fine people.

I haven't mentioned but i used to play Battlefield, which i wouldn't b apposed to dabbling in at some point. I assume then that the Ti would do?

As for a diff mobo, i know nothing of mobos other than to make sure the socket fits ur cpu, but im sure ds knows that! I assume wifi is good to have?

Future proofing is a motivation, but i have done some upgrades to my old ds (2010!!) along the way. It still does what i need.
— replaced 80gb SSD, which was a lot of $ at the time, w 250gb
— replaced, and doubled RAM, which was a pain since it was 6gb on 3 sticks so i had to find a set of 3 sticks
— replaced GTX 480 1.5gb w a 760 (or 780?)

So, final questions knowing i can stay at this price....

— will Ti run BF on the big screen at a decent frame rate and resolution?
— will 32gb of RAM actually bottleneck if not needed (I read this somewhere)?
— i assume the wifi Pro Carbon is so any wifi device usually connected by cable (printer, speakers, phone) would be cable free?
— would 2x 500gb SSDs be better option than a single 1tb SSD? One for OS, games, etc and the other for storage? Im never gonna store that much. Really just dog pics, which are backed up.

After this round of Qs, ill buy. Wont wait as u have all suggested!!

Big thanks to HockeyBuck, Setitimer, and now, Cretae.


Lol...OK...to your questions...

1...No other GPU would beat the RTX 2080 Ti performance in 4K or 2K on any panel for a couple years anyway.    That said ...TV’s are merely big, even 4K TV are not the best panel attributes for gaming...and as my forum pal Cretae said you get 60 FPS max...which is the most we are supposed to be able to detect with human eyes anyway...lol.    Get yourself a nice wide 2K/1440P 34” IPS quality G-Sync gaming monitor with a high refresh rate and you might see what your games can really do visually for you.    

2.....Nope. 32 GB RAM will not bottleneck anything...just memory capacity there when needed.    16 GB would be fine for now but 32 GB is an inexpensive luxury right now on the market and goes towards future proofing as game designers are figuring out how to use more RAM.

3.....Wired connection to the web will always exceed WIFI in quality and signal performance.    If you don’t need it now, don’t worry about the other mobos.    If at some point in future you need WIFI, that can be dealt with later on by using a USB adapter. WIFI is just a service compromise many folks have to make to use the web where they need it.

4.....Lol....Only you can decide which storage options meet your need best.   As equipped, you would have plenty of space and no worries on a 1 TB Drive 1 and still have an unused open M.2 NVME SSD port on the motherboard if you ever want or need to add another.   That’s another kind of future proofing. Easy to just add more storage! Our experience is that despite best efforts, our C drives tend to fill up fast.

Now that you are drowning in information overload...lol...Remember I stuffed your build to take full tech advantage of the DS sale.   That’s a great DS price for all of that very top end quality tech and performance.    Hand built and fully stress tested, you will get quite a hot rig to game with when it arrives.    Let us know how it goes!

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  Quote Manbearpig Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: Today at 5:26am
It is done! Just ordered the exact Lumos build by HockeyBuck. Thank u all for advice and knowledge. I'll send a pic of the finished set up as I conquer the Civ world.

Happy Thanksgiving (assuming y'all r into that)!

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  Quote HockeyBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: Today at 10:35am
   Now for the hard part ...the wait!    
You are going to have a blast when this arrives...enjoy it!           
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