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New Gaming PC

Post Date: 2021-04-03

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17blue17 View Drop Down
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: New Gaming PC
    Posted: 03 Apr 2021 at 5:52pm
Budget:
$3000 to $4000

Expectations:
Replacing a digital storm system from 2011 with single gpu. I am out of date on current tech and would appreciate advice. I normally keep a computer for 10 years as I am retired with limited budget. I like a lot of hard drives for internal backup etc. I do not need the best but keeping in mind that I keep the system for a long time I want something that can be mid range for a while. Currently have a full tower system with single gtx 960 card and have been happy with this. No interest in SLI. I like Nvidia over AMD but newer drivers over last year have been bad. Hopefully will not end up with a new gpu with bad driver support. I see people complaining on Nvidia forum about all the money they spent just to get poor results. I had a AMD graphics card in past and was not happy so hoping to stick with Nvidia.

Usage:
1080p gaming ( paradox strategy games like stellaris and eu4) and normal desktop use.

Special Needs:
[Please Type Here]

Saved Ticket #: [3850459]

Specifications:
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  Quote GrandesBollas Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Apr 2021 at 6:11pm
I think your build is really solid. The only aspect that would concern me would be performance in later years. Most of the items are easily replaceable. Upgrade RAM. Upgrade GPU. Replace AIO. Replace SSDs and HDDs. Etc. In 10 years, the AM4 chipset will be replaced by something else, and you won't be able to upgrade CPUs without replacing the entire motherboard. Your stated use is clearly within the parameters of a 2021 8-core CPU. I really don't know what gaming/business requirements will look like in 10 years. One trend appers to be number of CPU cores. 10 years ago, 2 cores were enough. 5 years ago, 4 cores. Today, 8 cores.

12 cores in 5 years may or may not be a problem. 16-cores in 10 years could warrant another looksy at upgrading the CPU.

Again, I think you have a really good build. If this were my build, I would want to consider whether or not I need to hedge future requirements. It may be better to go with the system you laid out, and plan to upgrade in 10 years. But, if your gaming/desktop needs change (e.g., going to 1440P or 4k gaming) before that 10 year period is up, you may have to upgrade sooner.
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  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 3:49am
I agree you have started quite well.

There is no need for a 1000W power supply. Your utilization will start well under 500W and likely not go much beyond 500 in the future. 850W will give you more than ample overhead for unstressed running.

I urge you not to waste your money on an RTX 3070. Not only is it carrying an extreme premium right now, it is a card best suited for 1440p performance at 100fps and above. That is total overkill and will not be of any benefit to you at 1080p EVER. The RTX 3060Ti is even a bit pricy and overpowered, but it will never disappoint you at 1080p. I recommend you splurge on that one, and get the card that has plenty of future in it without wasting power you won't use. It's rated nearly 300% more powerful than the card you have!

https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-RTX-3060-Ti-vs-Nvidia-GTX-960/4090vs3165


Everything else is fine. The AMD 5800X is the best selection right now for high performance for a very long time. I'm sorry to see the excellent and decently priced MSI Gaming Pro Carbon no longer offered, I would recommend that. You could consider a better motherboard for greater longevity, but it disappoints there is a wait for the Asus 570-PRO, and the next one up is over $100 more for not much gain. The standard motherboards are fine, but an upgrade gets you better thermal management for the long haul.

The internal lighting promotion is free, and can be turned completely off if you wish.

The changes I highly recommend bring the cost down to $3306 without a mobo upgrade. There is no guarantee that spending more there will pay off in the long run, so choose wisely.
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 1:57pm
Thank you for your replies. So a change to a 3060 TI, a better cpu and a better motherboard.   Any suggestion on what CPU and motherboard? I am not in a hurry so I can wait for a mother board to come back in stock.
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  Quote GrandesBollas Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 2:46pm
I personally would go with the 5900X and the Crosshair VIII hero. Been very happy with my 3950X and Crosshair VIII hero. It is a solid board and will give you a lot in terms of future flexibility.
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 3:45pm
I spent a few hours doing a new build ticket 3851714

Faster CPU as I remember in my past builds I always regretted not getting the fastest CPU I could. Lowered the GPU. I can always upgrade the gpu 5 years from now.

Spent some time looking at mother board reviews and was stuck between the crosshair hero and the Asus ROG Strix. Ended up with the Strix because the audio was supposed to be better and had PCIE 4 if I understood correctly. I don't really need the wifi. Also the concern about the chipset being below the gpu on the crosshair according to one review. I could have misunderstood as I am 10 years out of date on the tech. Kept the power supply at 1000 - maybe overkill but not that much more and a couple builds back I had power supply problems so I learned not to to go cheap on the power supply. Again I maybe thinking wrong but it is only $88 more than a 850.

Any more thoughts or suggestions?


Edited by 17blue17 - 04 Apr 2021 at 3:48pm
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Cretae View Drop Down
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  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 4:46am
I never said to get a more powerful CPU. The 5950 will keep you waiting indefinitely and will improve gaming performance not one bit. Some are still waiting for a 5950 after 3 months. If that that's your bag, have at it, but let's look at the gaming performance benchmarks:


https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-9-5950X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5800X/4086vs4085

$561 extra will bring nothing for gaming. You have not mentioned any other use for which all those extra cores may ever be needed, and you may rest assured you will be very unlikely to ever NEED more that 8 cores just for gaming. Lets not forget that is 16 THREADS. These processors today are much faster than ever before which is a great help, but gaming is still almost entirely a single-core task with some games coded to perform a few minor tasks in parallel. The vast majority of gaming processes must occur in a specific sequence which cannot be off-loaded to other threads. Thus the meager 1% "advantage" when you double the core count as above. Gaming GPUs do most of the heavy computing now, with the CPU specifically coded on as few cores as possible simply to "feed the beast".

You might read this if you wish for more detail:

"{What is the point of limiting game to 1/4th or even 1/8th of maximimum possible performance?"

"It's not, and that statement sounds like you don't understand parallelism and determinism in the context of programming.

If some set of calculations needs to be done in a specific order, or each one depends on the results of the previous one, trying to split it over multiple cores will actually make it slower. A good example would be following a list of driving or walking directions - trying to do that in parallel would just have everyone wandering around effectively at random and no one would reach the destination.

Multithreading only helps when the calculations don't depend on each other's results and thus can be done in parallel rather than in a specific sequence. A good example would be searching for a lost child - as long as everyone does a different thing, every additional person makes the search take less time.

Most games - especially multiplayer simulation games - require calculations to happen in an extremely specific order and thus multithreading is simply not suitable.

Tasks which don't affect the simulation state can be assigned to other threads, like drawing graphics, playing sounds, saving, handling input etc but in many cases there's no measurable benefit to doing so compared to the effort of developing a robust framework for that.

When it does make sense, game devs will and do use multiple threads

PS: this is why chips with tons of cores are wonderful for science and servers but mostly useless for games. Games typically want epic single core performance and only use maybe 2 cores at most"



IMHO it is unlikely that games will shift drastically away from the necessity to process sequentially, as that is the nature of the beast. It will remain what the vast majority of gamers will be able to process on their rigs for years to come. GPUs now generally have more processors than CPUs because that's where the action is.

If you are concerned about the best gaming processor you can get, wait awhile for the Rocket lake procs from Intel. they are supposed to be out now, but have been delayed. (Big surprise!) To go Intel ATM, is to buy the obsolete PCIe 3 bus. The new procs will be the fastest gamers, but they will be limited to 8 CORES/16 threads, because... we covered that.

If you want to waste $88 on an extra 150W you'll never use, that's fine.

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  Quote GrandesBollas Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 5:53am
In the end it's your money. You need to be satisfied with what you spend it on. The differences between the available CPUs are not so black and white:



Link - https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested

and



Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxiuvQPL_qs&ab_channel=GamersNexus

The 5800X and its equivalent the 10700k are value oriented CPUs. They are good for now/today's games. They likely will still be viable in the future, but you will see performance dropping on as newer AAA titles are released. A good rule of thumb when considering cost is save on the CPU and spend more on the GPU. From your original configuration, the 5800X coupled with a 3070 is actually a really good combination. But, both are not very viable in the long term you stated as a parameter. The GPU will become obsolete before the CPU bottlenecks your performance. The GPU is relatively easy to replace - plug and play for the most part. Not likely you would have difficulty installing newer GPU card series as they come out. The CPU on the other hand is a different animal. The AM4 socket is EOL. Not very clear where AMD will go next, but if you find yourself needing a new motherboard because your CPU bottlenecks the GPU, you are looking at replacing the motherboard. The differences in CPU choices could make the difference when even if such a replacement will be necessary.
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 3:49pm
OK I am listening.   Not sure what to do on the cpu. In the past I went mid range CPU and then wished I had gone more.

Another question is H20 cooling. I never over clock and I am worried that if I keep the system a long time it will need replacement and I don't really like the idea of me dealing with water in the system. I understand they are fairly safe but long term I don't know. Normally I would go air cool and pay extra for a more powerful fan but digital storm only offers amd factory fan. Will this be ok? The configuration strongly suggests I go with liquid cool?????

Also the fan upgrade for the case - is this just for color? Not sure what remote control would be for.

Maybe the AMD Ryzen 9 3950X (16-Core) 4.7 GHz Turbo with air cool????   


Edited by 17blue17 - 05 Apr 2021 at 4:52pm
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  Quote Bob100 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 7:04pm
I am with you on being concerned about running water through my computer. For that reason, I went with the upgraded air cooling on my Lumos that I ordered about a year & a half ago. But, I see that they no longer offer the high efficiency air coolers as an option.

If you really want a high-end air cooler, perhaps a call to DS sales might be able to help you find one that they would install. As an option, you could probably buy one on your own and ship it to them for installation on your new build. Just call and ask what your options might be on the cooling.
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  Quote GrandesBollas Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 7:27pm
I would stick with the 5900X (or go with the 10850K) and an AIO water cooler. These chips will run hot and are designed to get maximum performance at cooler temperatures (i.e., thermal velocity boost). The DS cases are not great, in my opinion, for air coolers. Gamers Nexus has an entire video library showing the kinds of cases that do work (e.g., meshify). The worst cases are the ones that are sealed pretty tight such as the NZXT H710. The Lumos case as well as the Aventum have not been well designed for air cooling (even when fans are set to exhaust or intake in support of the radiator). Jayz2cents looked at an Aventum X and concluded that temps would have been better had the solid glass panels not been used (he took them off).
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  Quote GrandesBollas Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Apr 2021 at 7:29pm


This benchmark run is made using my 3950X, with the BIOS set OC 4.1 gHz all core. My configuration is using a custom liquid cooling loop for the CPU only.
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  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 8:29am
Originally posted by 17blue17

OK I am listening.   Not sure what to do on the cpu. In the past I went mid range CPU and then wished I had gone more.

Another question is H20 cooling. I never over clock and I am worried that if I keep the system a long time it will need replacement and I don't really like the idea of me dealing with water in the system. I understand they are fairly safe but long term I don't know. Normally I would go air cool and pay extra for a more powerful fan but digital storm only offers amd factory fan. Will this be ok? The configuration strongly suggests I go with liquid cool?????

Maybe the AMD Ryzen 9 3950X (16-Core) 4.7 GHz Turbo with air cool????   

I'm also in the no advocate for liquid cooling club, including because I don't manually OC.

Fortunately, there is a good option, a low-end err low TDP CPU. Adding to Cretae's earlier comments, you should be able to go with the Ryzen 5 5600X without complaint. Having a 65 watt TDP, the sock AMD Wraith Stealth cooler is sufficient. It can get a little loud when the CPU has longer, heavier loads but shouldn't notably hinder performance if the case has fair cooling. Later on, you could upgrade to one of the lower-end, premium third-party air coolers.

Speaking of notable -- again, adding onto the CPU discussion -- here are more benchmarks. Sure, you can consider the overall score, but really focus on the single and dual-core values -- as Cretae already said, gaming isn't strongly multi-thread.

AMD Ryzen 5 5600X vs. AMD Ryzen 9 5950X

AMD Ryzen 5 5600X vs. Intel Core i9 10900K

The 11th generation i9 does begin pulling away from the Ryzen 5 because the max Turbo frequency reaches above 5GHz (5.2/5.3) -- which is limited to single core operation.

Intel Core i9 11900 vs. AMD Ryzen 5 5600X

Intel Core i9 11900K vs. AMD Ryzen 5 5600X
You should also consider the 11900K has a 125 watt TDP, nearly double.


A CPU With More Cores is Always Faster
When it comes to your computer’s CPU — or the CPU in any device, like a smartphone — the number of cores isn’t the only important thing. Dual-core CPUs were a revelation when they became mainstream in home PCs, and companies have followed up with quad-core, octa-core, and CPUs with even more cores.

Each core is a separate execution unit, and more cores allows your computer to run multiple different programs at the same time.

But it’s not just about the number of cores. If you have a single-threaded application, it can only run on one core at a time, so a faster four-core CPU will run it faster than a slower eight-core CPU. Many applications are still single-threaded and can’t take advantage of all those additional cores to speed up their execution.

Sure, given a quad-core CPU with identical speeds to an octa-core CPU, the octa-core CPU will be better. But sometimes you’ll see an eight-core CPU with slower speeds than a quad-core CPU, or even a quad-core CPU with slower speeds than a dual-core CPU. Cores aren’t the only thing that matters — the CPU’s speed is also very important, and there’s a good chance you’ll be better off with a faster CPU with less cores.

7 of the Biggest PC Hardware Myths That Just Won’t Die

Wrapping this post up... You don't need a "high-end" CPU for gaming -- TDP and "Turbo" frequency are the key values to consider. Quite frankly, putting those couple hundred dollars towards a better GPU, sufficient RAM, or even a motherboard model upgrade will be a much better value.
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 1:33pm
Thank you for the replies. The 5600x with air cool sounds interesting and looking at some reviews on the web it sounds like the 5600x with the 3060 ti gpu for 1080 use is more than enough for what I need. I did send a message to digital storm and they said that the pump on their sealed system would maybe need to be replaced after 5 years and I am not sure I want to deal with that. They also said no matter what I picked to buy it would be maybe 10 to 12 weeks out. So in summary the 3060 ti now and maybe upgrade gpu 5 years down the road. The 5600x cpu saves me money and does not need the H20 pump issue.   I currently have a i7 950 cpu with a gtx 960 gpu and am not that unhappy so I would think amd 5600x cpu with a 3060 ti gpu would be a nice upgrade. If I understand correctly the motherboard allows me to upgrade to the 5800 and 5900 cpus in the future.   I mainly play strategy games like paradox stellaris and eu4 which are known to be more hard on the gpu that the cpu.

Any final suggestions? Am I thinking correctly?

Upgraded build 3854533

Note I really like the extra hard drives and do not mind spending the money on them.

Edited by 17blue17 - 06 Apr 2021 at 1:41pm
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  Quote GrandesBollas Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 1:48pm
Keep in mind what you said here:

"I normally keep a computer for 10 years as I am retired with limited budget."

5600X with 3060Ti may be good for now. You most certainly won't get 10 years from that build. You may be better off with a laptop. I've recently been testing a laptop (4800H CPU/1660Ti) I bought from Amazon for $1k. I use that most of the time now while teleworking so that I'm not unnecessarily using my desktop. I'm actually playing several demanding games on my 1440P monitor (Horizon Zero Dawn; Amnesia Rebirth). My goal is throw this laptop out when it breaks after about a year and replace it with a more modern model with the same price point.

If budget is really important, customizing a "budget desktop" requires serious consideration.
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 5:24pm
You make really good points. And you are correct to point me back to my own goal. I have learned a lot thanks to the people who have responded. My current thinking is:

1) a review back in 2020 said the 5600x was the ideal sweet spot gaming rig and that the 5800x was not worth it. How times have changed. I can use this same build and upgrade the cpu at some point to the 5950x if I want in the future. And the gpu maybe after 5 years. Although cpu prices never seem to fall very much.

2) I would prefer to stay away from the whole h20 stuff for now. I saw a post about someone having their digital storm system having high heat and having to redo the cpu paste and not being sure if the pump was bad or not. I wonder how hard is it to change the pump? How much danger of a leak? Maybe a simple part to replace - I don't know.

3) Your lap top plan sounds interesting. In the past I have heard people complaining about laptop video cards and drivers. Your plan may be a good one. I know my sister went with the in between route of using low cost HP desktops and replacing them as they died hoping to save money. She has gone through 3 of them while my current one is still working. Money wise she might be ahead but trouble and hassle I am ahead. There is almost nothing that can be repaired on the cheap HP desktops - it like all the components are in one combined part.

4) I am still using my 10 year old I7 950 and gtx 960 and things are 80% good so I am easy to please. Only reason I am looking is that it is the 10 year mark and I have some xtra one time cash.

I guess I have gone from a 5800x to a 5950x to a 5600x so I still open to suggestions. I have bad memories of an old lap top from years ago - something stone age compared to what you are using - but the bad feeling is still there.   

Edited by 17blue17 - 06 Apr 2021 at 5:32pm
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  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by 17blue17

If I understand correctly the motherboard allows me to upgrade to the 5800 and 5900 cpus in the future.

Correct -- and that motherboard should hold you out until the AM4 socket is deprecated.
Originally posted by 17blue17

Any final suggestions? Am I thinking correctly?

Upgraded build 3854533

Note I really like the extra hard drives and do not mind spending the money on them.

As far as storage capacities, I leave that up to others to know their needs. However, there is one issue I see. "Storage Set 2" you have chosen a FireCuda 520.

1) A limitation of consumer level boards and CPUs, only one M.2 slot (the one connected directly to the Ryzen) supports PCIe gen. 4. The second slot (via the chipset) is PCIe gen. 3. So, the FireCuda 520 or any other gen. 4 SSD will be crippled in the second slot. Basically, only pick up to one gen. 4 SSD.

I would suggest the 970 EVO Plus for the second drive.

2) High quality/high-end PCIe gen. 3 SSDs are no slouch. I have an HP EX950 NVMe in my 2018 HP laptop and loads are in seconds.

More on target:

Seagate FireCuda 520 review that conveniently includes the Samsung 970 EVO Plus in the benchmarks. * The 970 even outperforms the 520 in at least one test.

Seagate FireCuda 520 SSD Review: Big Performance in an Expensive Package

Samsung 980 Pro vs. Seagate FireCuda 520 vs. Samsung 970 Pro

Samsung 980 Pro NVMe SSD review: PCIe 4.0 for the win

3) I've read some reviews in the past that indicate there are at least a few stumbles by manufacturers trying to have current NAND and and controllers at marketable PCI gen. 4 speeds. "Teething troubles" if you will. Granted, this isn't concrete.

4) After a few surprise HDD failures over a decade, I finally stopped being a Seagate fan. So, I'd lean towards the 980 Pro. Although, after reading reviews, it'd be nice if DS offered the WD_Black SN850.

Lastly...

Using OuterVision's Power Supply Calculator (which seems to provide a fair power consumption estimate), your configured system would use ~380 watts. If you were to eventually move up to a GeForce RTX 3090 or Ryzen 7 5800X and GeForce RTX 3080, for examples, that consumption would move to ~535 watts. For optimal efficiency, it's good to stay within 45 to 65% peak load -- up to 80% is okay but do your best not to exceed that. The point is even an 850 watt PSU should be comfortable for your current and future needs. However, I do understand the flip side, the PSU is one of the most tedious components to replace. Therefore, the 1,000 watt may still seem worthwhile. I'm just doubting you'll ever reach that need.

Edited by MrCheetah - 06 Apr 2021 at 6:21pm
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 3:34am
Thank you for the information. Greatly appreciated.

New revised build for hard drive changes 3855335

If I understand correctly:

hard drive 1 1x SSD M.2 (500GB Samsung 980 PRO) (NVM Express)

hard drive 2 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 970 EVO PLUS) (NVM Express)

I missed that one was seagate and the others samsung. A long time ago I had problems with seagate. Never had samsung but I will follow your advice.

As far as power supply: I am ok with 850 or 1000 but not less. Important thing is best quality I can get as I had power supplies burn out in the past. 850 says fully modular and 1000 says partial modular. It seems fully modular would be better???? Would have liked another brand to upgrade to. Money wise $88 is nothing but fully modular is maybe better??????   Why the 1000 is not fully modular I don't know.

Leave at 1000 for now. If anyone can explain why cable wise one is better than the other I would appreciate it. The extra $88 does not bother me for the 1000


Edited by 17blue17 - 07 Apr 2021 at 3:38am
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  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 10:26am
Originally posted by 17blue17

Thank you for the information. Greatly appreciated.

New revised build for hard drive changes 3855335

If I understand correctly:

hard drive 1 1x SSD M.2 (500GB Samsung 980 PRO) (NVM Express)

hard drive 2 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 970 EVO PLUS) (NVM Express)

Looks good to me.

Originally posted by 17blue17

I missed that one was seagate and the others samsung. A long time ago I had problems with seagate. Never had samsung but I will follow your advice.

It was a tidbit based on experience. I haven't owned/used a Samsung drive either. However, Seagate burned me one too many times and would need to earn back my trust at this point.

Originally posted by 17blue17

As far as power supply: I am ok with 850 or 1000 but not less. Important thing is best quality I can get as I had power supplies burn out in the past. 850 says fully modular and 1000 says partial modular. It seems fully modular would be better???? Would have liked another brand to upgrade to. Money wise $88 is nothing but fully modular is maybe better??????   Why the 1000 is not fully modular I don't know.

Leave at 1000 for now. If anyone can explain why cable wise one is better than the other I would appreciate it. The extra $88 does not bother me for the 1000

I agree, $88 shouldn't be a bank breaker. As for the modular, semi-modular aspect... I'm not certain either. I guess, it would somewhat depend on what portion is modular. Ha. That is, if the main connectors are permanently attached but the PCIe and SATA are modular. Either way, it probably won't be a big deal/problem. I assume, if there are extra cables, DS would appropriately route them or properly stash them out of sight.

I don't know how specific DS had the component options before, though I can't criticize them harshly for not doing so currently. The present supply and demand situation is frustrating for many/most.
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  Quote carefulpunch Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by GrandesBollas

I personally would go with the 5900X and the Crosshair VIII hero. Been very happy with my 3950X and Crosshair VIII hero. It is a solid board and will give you a lot in terms of future flexibility.


My vote is for 5900X and the Crosshair VIII hero as well. As mentioned above, the board is solid!
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 6:22pm
I appreciate the information. I have a couple concerns

1) it appears that there are still bios updates for the board I picked but the hero has not had a bios update for a year. Maybe I read wrong. I do not have any problem spending money on a better board - I just want a stable one.

2) I am having severe doubts about the nvidia video cards. I watch the Nvidia driver forum and people have been complaining for most of 2020 and 2021 about the bad drivers. I have a old gtx 960 with no problems but I have been sticking with an old 456.71 driver. If I upgrade to a 3000 series card it seems like I will have nothing but problems????? My use is simple 1080p no SLI no VR so hopefully I would not have problems???   Can people tell me they have 3000 series cards without problems? I see people buying them here so why so many complaints on the nvidia driver forum????

At the same time I have bad memories about a older AMD gpu so I like Nvidia gpu.

Edited by 17blue17 - 07 Apr 2021 at 6:23pm
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  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 07 Apr 2021 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by 17blue17

1) it appears that there are still bios updates for the board I picked but the hero has not had a bios update for a year. Maybe I read wrong. I do not have any problem spending money on a better board - I just want a stable one.


The BIOS releases appear very similar to me (three this year for the Hero). The X570-E does have one additional (in Feb.) with a RAID UEFI update.

ROG Strix X570-E Gaming

ROG Crosshair VIII Hero

ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero

It could be worse. For most routers (in my experience) after the first few months, nothing, no matter what needs fixing/tweaking. :) :(

Originally posted by 17blue17

2) I am having severe doubts about the nvidia video cards. I watch the Nvidia driver forum and people have been complaining for most of 2020 and 2021 about the bad drivers. I have a old gtx 960 with no problems but I have been sticking with an old 456.71 driver. If I upgrade to a 3000 series card it seems like I will have nothing but problems????? My use is simple 1080p no SLI no VR so hopefully I would not have problems???   Can people tell me they have 3000 series cards without problems? I see people buying them here so why so many complaints on the nvidia driver forum????

At the same time I have bad memories about a older AMD gpu so I like Nvidia gpu.

I understand your concern, and have read some repeated complaints (although, about both brands), which does bring me to the next point. There will always be complaints/criticisms about every product/service. I could even write pages about how ridiculous, unfounded, unrealistic, and exaggerated many of them are. Does that mean there are no problems? No. In fact, it's the opposite, making reviews less helpful.

The best I can do to comfort is suggest narrowing your research as close as possible to your specific use cases: the 3060 Ti, your favorite titles, etc. That, and try to assess the complaint objectively: does their setup seem unique enough for an isolated incident? are they being nit-picky? do they seem knowledgable or simply parroting? did they respond/troubleshoot properly? and so on...

For example, here's a customer review from August 2020 bashing RADEON drivers and touting NVIDIA.
I have tried 7 different versions of the driver, all uninstalled properly with DDU in safe mode, tried reformatting windows, NOTHING helps. AMD drivers are disgustingly bad, no matter the version. This card crashes my computer MULTIPLE times a day. I am lucky to get it to stay up for 4 hours, it's been crashing every 2-3 hours under load.

I have multiple other machines, all of which running nvidia cards in similar workloads, they have all been up and working perfectly for weeks. Nvidia has more engineers working on just drivers for their cards than AMD has engineers, period. I have no hope at all for new AMD cards if their drivers are this bad, it doesn't matter how powerful the card is if it can't even stay on. I am returning this and will not buy another AMD card until AMD figures out how to do something as basic as make stable drivers.
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 4:30am
It seems the hero is better for overclocking and has better bios options including reset options.

Both boards seem to have the same bios usb issues but asus seems to be making new bios for both.

I guess I will listen to both of you telling me to go with the hero.


New Build with hero board 3856747

Note DS now only shows the dark hero as an option. From what I can find they are almost the same.

I have placed the order .

I decided to to stay with the 5600x and the 3060 ti. Went with the dark hero mb.

With tax and shipping ended up $4,127.68 and my budget was $4000 so close enough.

Maybe not going to last 10 years but I can always upgrade the gpu in 5 years and get by. Maybe add in a 5950x some day using the same system but not today.

Thank you to everyone who responded. I learned a lot and greatly appreciated the feed back and suggestions.
   

Edited by 17blue17 - 08 Apr 2021 at 6:19pm
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  Quote ealderson Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 6:03am
I just got my machine about a month ago and it has a 5950X, dark hero and 3080. I haven't had any problems so far and I use my machine about 12-15 hours a day (for both work and gaming).
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by ealderson

I just got my machine about a month ago and it has a 5950X, dark hero and 3080. I haven't had any problems so far and I use my machine about 12-15 hours a day (for both work and gaming).


Can you please tell me which nividia driver you are using? I see people suggesting 456.71 or 457.51 and that the newer ones are bad so I am very interested in learning which one you use.

Thank you
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  Quote ealderson Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 5:16pm
465.89 - prob the latest one. I generally upgrade every time I get a notification there is a new one available. That being said, I am not playing stuff at the moment that I would consider especially taxing on the GPU so maybe whatever issue you are reading about only applies to folks playing the latest and greatest GPU taxing games (cyberpunk, etc.).
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  Quote 17blue17 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by ealderson

465.89 - prob the latest one. I generally upgrade every time I get a notification there is a new one available. That being said, I am not playing stuff at the moment that I would consider especially taxing on the GPU so maybe whatever issue you are reading about only applies to folks playing the latest and greatest GPU taxing games (cyberpunk, etc.).


Wow. Thank you. I read the nvidia driver feedback thread each time a new driver is released and almost the whole thread is people complaining about the bad drivers and that the last ones that worked were back around 456.71 or 457.51 and that the whole 460 series drivers are bad. Month after month the same. I guess that people without problems don't post. Very nice to hear someone say that things are ok.

Thanks again.   
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  Quote ealderson Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by 17blue17

Originally posted by ealderson

465.89 - prob the latest one. I generally upgrade every time I get a notification there is a new one available. That being said, I am not playing stuff at the moment that I would consider especially taxing on the GPU so maybe whatever issue you are reading about only applies to folks playing the latest and greatest GPU taxing games (cyberpunk, etc.).


Wow. Thank you. I read the nvidia driver feedback thread each time a new driver is released and almost the whole thread is people complaining about the bad drivers and that the last ones that worked were back around 456.71 or 457.51 and that the whole 460 series drivers are bad. Month after month the same. I guess that people without problems don't post. Very nice to hear someone say that things are ok.

Thanks again.   

No problem. There might be some commonality among those having driver issues that I just don't share. Some other piece of hardware, software, specific games or something that certain games have in common that I don't play, etc. Lots of variables. I will say that I have had no problems thus far...so knock on wood. :)
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  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 4:41am
Originally posted by 17blue17

Originally posted by MrCheetah

@17blue17 It was. :) The difference is @CantRememberIt has chosen a workstation class CPU and motherboard to satisfy his needs. Much more capable but also much more expensive, and overkill if your primary computer usage is gaming, for example -- which in this case it isn't.

Just to give you an idea, the CPU/motherboard combo he chose can communicate/connect with up to three graphics cards at full speed, up to two high speed (gen. 4) SSDs at full speed, supports up to 256GB of RAM, plus other capabilities. However, the CPU is more than 3x the cost of the Ryzen 5 5600X and can consume 4x more energy (280w TDP, as much as many mid-tier graphics cards).

Nonetheless, never bad to get clarification/verification and make suggestions -- that's the purpose here after all.


Good to know. Can you clarify for me for my final build? I ended up switching to the Dark hero motherboard at the last minute with the 5600x cpu. Board Specs are unclear to me as they mention two m2 pcie 4 and one pcie 3 but then claim 2 in total so am I un clear if I am limited to one 4 and one 3? Internet searches are also unclear. I still have time to change things by phone even though I placed the order.   

Foremost, I will admit, I stand (err sit) corrected. I can't find proof as of when the change took place, but Im guessing one of the AMD AM4 AGESA updates. That could be also be why your Web search results are confusing/conflicting. Nevertheless, my bad for not carefully recheckiing recently.

If you look at the board specs....

ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero - Technical Specifications
Storage

AMD Ryzen™ 5000 Series/ 3000 Series Desktop Processors :
AMD Ryzen™ 4000 G-Series/ 3000 G-Series/ 2000 Series/ 2000 G-Series Desktop Processors :
1 x M.2_1 socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280 (PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support
1 x M.2_1 socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)
AMD X570 chipset :
1 x M.2_2 socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280/22110(PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support
8 x SATA 6Gb/s port(s),
Support Raid 0, 1, 10

This is a little confusing. It might have been less if ASUS listed them as...
Storage

AMD Ryzen™ 5000 Series/ 3000 Series Desktop Processors :
1 x M.2_1 socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280 (PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support
AMD Ryzen™ 4000 G-Series/ 3000 G-Series/ 2000 Series/ 2000 G-Series Desktop Processors :
1 x M.2_1 socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)
AMD X570 chipset :
1 x M.2_2 socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280/22110(PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support
8 x SATA 6Gb/s port(s),
Support Raid 0, 1, 10

Anyway... To break it down.
AMD Ryzen™ 5000 Series/ 3000 Series Desktop Processors :
1 x M.2_1 socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280 (PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support

If you look at photos of the board, M.2_1 is between the CPU and and top PCIe slot, beneath the cover with the Dark Hero name printed, which doubles as a heatsink. This is where DS will/should install the fastest drive (e.g., Samsung 980 Pro).
AMD X570 chipset :
1 x M.2_2 socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280/22110(PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support

M.2_2 (with heatsink cover) is located above the bottom PCIe slot.

Again, I do apologize for the misinformation. As you can, hopefully, deduce based on the details I provide, I'm very anal about my research. Do I make mistakes occasionally? Yes. However, I think, this was AMD/ASUS sneaking one by me.

With all of that said... I still recommend your drive configuration. The 970 EVO is plenty fast.

Edited by MrCheetah - 12 Apr 2021 at 4:48am
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  Quote ealderson Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 4:44am
Interesting.. I have double 980s on my Dark Hero. I'll dig up a drive performance app and test them and see what the delta is between the two.
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  Quote MrCheetah Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 4:53am
@ealderson I am indeed curious if somehow I misread it many times. Granted, specs listings can be confusing, but I recheck a lot. Also, I would say I was perhaps a bit less careful on the Dark Hero (as I had done a lot more research for the X570-E Gaming due to my own interest in builds with that board), however, that spec has changed for the X570-E Gaming as well. Again, possible I'm simply mistaken, though I have doubts.
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  Quote ealderson Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 5:02am
That could definitely be the case...you certainly researched it more than I did before I bought it. :)

I ran Samsung Magician benchmarks since I already had it installed and here's what it threw out:

980 Pro 1 (OS Drive) - Sequential 6541 MB/s Read, 5169 MB/s Write; Random IOPS 350097 Read, 308593 Write

980 Pro 2 (Game Drive) - Sequential 7094 MB/s Read, 5198 MB/s Write; Random IOPS 371826 Read, 335937 Write

Just for comparison's sake; my storage drive (860 Pro)

860 Pro (Storage Drive) - Sequential 550 MB/s Read, 488 MB/s Write; Random IOPS 55908 Read, 47363 Write

Edited by ealderson - 12 Apr 2021 at 5:03am
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  Quote ealderson Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 5:15am
Ah...details page should help.

Drive 1 - Interface PCIe Gen. 4 x 4

Drive 2 - Interface PCIe Gen. 4 x 4

Drive 3 - Interface SATA 3 (6Gb/s)
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  Quote ealderson Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 5:37am
This might also help - from the manual.
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  Quote Cretae Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 5:42am
As I understand it, the board delivers 24 PCIe lanes. 16 go to the GPU, the next 4 are dedicated to NMVe M.2 slot 1, and the rest go to the chipset. NMVe slot 2 works off the chipset lanes, but there is often not much competition that would create a noticeable difference in performance from slot 1 results. It's curious that slot 2 results here are faster than slot 1. My theory is the differences in data being read/written/transferred. The OS has vastly more choices and subroutines to process than with the slot 2 drive just feeding a game to the CPU. That's my story, I'll stick to it for awhile 'til you guys blow me up.

I was blathering while the diagram was being posted. As I see it, it's explaining that the chipset installed on this particular form factor MUST be X570 in order to enable PCIe 4 on slot 2.

Edited by Cretae - 12 Apr 2021 at 5:48am
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