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Rate merit of various components for a $3K+ system

Post Date: 2008-08-29

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rai-zero View Drop Down
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  Quote rai-zero Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Topic: Rate merit of various components for a $3K+ system
    Posted: 29 Aug 2008 at 9:50pm

this forum is great for advice and DS looks to be a great PC gaming computer maker, I say seems to be because I have not had the pleasure of owning one.  But if this forum and the hardware they offer and the customer service is as good as it seems than it will have my support for a long time.

I am a little lost on which pieces of the pie give the best value and performance advantage.
 
I am looking for a PC that will play Crisis (etc.) but also for video editing and all around computing.
 
I don't want to break the bank but I also don't want to get a wimpy PC.   I know it's best to give a ballpark say I am looking anywhere from $3000 to $3300.  that's for the box and everything in it, I'll buy the monitor and speakers, mouse etc on the side.  24" (likely).
 
DS is great to offer thousands of different builds but it also makes the picking so much harder.
 
What I am wondering is:
 
2 core vs 4 core? 
 
-Case (spend $$ for the top 3 cases or get the lesser 900 case save that $180?)
Power supply?
 
-RAM which speeds?
 
-Video card? this is a big deal?  What's the best for ~$600?  What about ~$400 or less?
 
HD what's the value of getting a FAST HD for the OS?  SSHD vs 10K vs 7K rpms? How much performance am I going to feel between the three?
 
Overclock? yes or no?
to follow that if OC then what's the cooling system?  stave 3 or liquid cool?
 
PS: I know several people have gven me ideas before but I may have changed the price range so I wanted to start again.  Also if you could explain why you picked which components for example that particular CPU or that RAM etc.
 
thanks (from a soon to be DS owner)
 


Edited by rai-zero - 29 Aug 2008 at 10:00pm
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  Quote rai-zero Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 29 Aug 2008 at 10:04pm
what's the best starting system for me to start with? 
 
Should I start at the benchmark crusher and work my way down or start at the Dominator and work my way up?
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  Quote skyR Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 29 Aug 2008 at 10:43pm
This is my recommendation:

http://www.digitalstormonline.com/comploadsaved.asp?id=179109

Definitely a quad (FOUR) core for video editing. The Q9450, definitely one of the two quad core choices for a new build. You don't gain any benefits (except for multiplier increase [which only concerns the hardcore overclockers]) by spending $200 - $999 more

8GB of ram, definitely nice to have as the prices are so cheap now-a-days. No reason to buy DDR3 as the current processors can not use the memory bandwidth provided by it. 800Mhz will get the Q9450 overclocked to 3.2GHz, if you'd like a higher overclock, you can get the 1066MHz ram and end up with a 4.2GHz if you are lucky enough.

The best single PCI-E x16 slot card available is the AMD Radeon 4870X2.

SSD for OS and applications, I don't know how hardcore you are with editing or files so I just selected the 500GB and 1TB. One can be used for storage and the other backup.

The Q9450 (processor selected) can easily be overclocked to 3.6GHz+ on air so liquid is not needed unless you plan on going somewhere in the 4.4GHz+ range.

And the Antec 900 is sufficient for all these components.


Edited by skyR - 29 Aug 2008 at 10:49pm
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 30 Aug 2008 at 5:52am
this is what I think $3322

I don't think you will have much use or the ssd right now. Instead I picked you a 10,000rpm raptor

most people I see with Q9450 don't go over 3.4 with liquid cooling, so If you want 3.6 or higher speeds then I picked the q9550 for you.

I picked liquid cooling cause with that you should be able to get higher/stable speed out of OCing your processor.

I never agree with a 1TB HDD cause it simply to hard and takes too long to manage, do you have any idea how long it will take you to defrag or backup a 1TB HDD?

I picked a 1000w psu for you so if you want to run dual cards and add other things later you can.


If your are gonna use higher resolution then 1680x1050 then you will need 2 graphic cards. I would also advise you to raise the warranty to 4 years.

Edited by DST4ME - 30 Aug 2008 at 5:55am
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  Quote rai-zero Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 30 Aug 2008 at 2:19pm
thanks for the advice Smile
 
I am trying to figure out the video card situation, there are so many to pick.
 
I prefer not to open my case.  meaning I'd pay a bit extra now for a build that will survive 4 years as is.  
 
I may think about the extra year warranty.
 
 
 


Edited by rai-zero - 30 Aug 2008 at 2:38pm
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 30 Aug 2008 at 5:00pm
Well if you want to not open the case then I would go with the latest card.
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  Quote widdlecat Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 31 Aug 2008 at 12:53pm
Another reason to open your case is to occasionally blow the dust out of the system with canned air. It's best to do this with the pc turned off (turn off the power supply switch, but leave it plugged in for ground). Clear out any radiator fins and heatsinks. Make sure all your fans are clean and simply ensure there is no dust buildup anywhere. Dust layers can act as an insulator causing electronics to run hotter.

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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 31 Aug 2008 at 9:53pm
I looked for ways to improve on DST4ME's config, and didn't see much. If you go with 8GB of RAM, your OC is not likely to be as good as if you do a 4GB (2x2GB) kit. In that case, the water cooled CPU might be a bit of a waste, although Intel boards do better with 8GB installed than NVidia boards do. I do like SkyR's build as well, although the SSD drive seems more a luxury to me and maybe out of place in the build. I don't have a problem with a 1TB drive, but the price of these units seems to me to hurt the overall build. Partitioning makes management of larger drives easy enough. I refuse to deal with anything larger than a 250GB partition myself, though admittedly, I don't deal with video at all.
 
 
If it were me, with that budget:
 
I left a 1000W PSU in there for further system upgrade in the future. You can easily run everything in that system with something a little smaller to save some cash. The only game that is likely to suffer a little in performance from going with the HD4870x2 is Crysis, which you did mention by name. It is possible to get an SLI pair of GTX260 into a build, and well within budget if you can live without a raptor and do a normal 7200RPM HDD setup. Your gaming won't suffer, as you will not see many hardfaults with 8GB of RAM installed. I hardly see any with 4GB installed- maybe 6 in a session. Here's another build, one that will do better with Crysis:
 
 
In this build I went down to 4GB since NVidia boards don't do as well with 8GB installed.
 


Edited by Tyler Lowe - 31 Aug 2008 at 10:11pm
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  Quote Ripper Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 2:00am
Originally posted by widdlecat

Another reason to open your case is to occasionally blow the dust out of the system with canned air. It's best to do this with the pc turned off (turn off the power supply switch, but leave it plugged in for ground). Clear out any radiator fins and heatsinks. Make sure all your fans are clean and simply ensure there is no dust buildup anywhere. Dust layers can act as an insulator causing electronics to run hotter.

 
well wild cat while i agree with that totally... i know for sure that layer of dust on the heatsinks causes a rise in heat... but cleaning the fans is an issue for me because when the dust collects on the fans it tends to balance them perfectly and when u clean them, u unbalance them slightly and the more u do this overtime causes wear on the berings inside ur fan... messing them up a bit and possibly causing failur... but a pc looks better clean so i advise to avoid this problem get some dust filters they are cheap and solves that whole issue to a large degree :)
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  Quote Ripper Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 2:02am
or widdlecat lol
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  Quote rai-zero Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Tyler Lowe

I looked for ways to improve on DST4ME's config, and didn't see much. If you go with 8GB of RAM, your OC is not likely to be as good as if you do a 4GB (2x2GB) kit.
 
The only game that is likely to suffer a little in performance from going with the HD4870x2 is Crysis, which you did mention by name. It is possible to get an SLI pair of GTX260 into a build, and well within budget if you can live without a raptor and do a normal 7200RPM HDD setup. Your gaming won't suffer, as you will not see many hardfaults with 8GB of RAM installed. I hardly see any with 4GB installed- maybe 6 in a session.  
thanks tyler.
 
could you explain why I should get 4G or 8G of ram?  what's the pro/con of both?

I am not understanding the different video cards?? I can see the new cards are rated well (GTX 280 and 260 and 4870s etc...) but I do not understand which one is better for me?
 
As I said I'll likely be running a 24" and mainly playing FPS and RTS games.
 
thanks..


Edited by rai-zero - 01 Sep 2008 at 6:36pm
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 2:19pm
If your resultion is higher then 1650 x 1050 then you need to get 2 video cards, go with GTX260

4GB vs 8GB of ram, more ram will allow you to run multiple things at the same time, also take care of any app/games that are ram hungry. I did not know that 8GB of ram could mess with your OC.
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  Quote skyR Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 2:51pm
The more ram you have, the more strain you put on the memory controller. So you won't be able to overclock as good with 4x2 opposed to 2x1.
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  Quote Ripper Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 7:35pm
spose it really depends on what u using ur pc for :)
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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 9:11pm
Sky said it. The less RAM you have installed the lower the strain on your memory controller, and the higher the OC you will be able to reach. As for the cards, the HD4870x2 is an oustanding choice, it's just that ATI does not do as well with Crysis as Nvidia, and since you specifically mentioned that game, I offered a configuration I felt would support a 24" monitor well, and provide a very good experience in Crysis, yet remain within your budget.
 
Personally, I feel 4GB is enough for gaming, and truth to be known, 3GB is more than enough in most cases. The 8GB I suggested in the first config was more with video editing in mind. I do believe 4GB will become the norm over the next year or two, even in more mainstream OEM offerings. Overall, I think I like the second configuration I listed best if gaming is your prime concern. If it's video editing, and you still want to be able to do some gaming and have a great experience, config 1 is IMHO very strong, as are the two configurations Sky and DST listed. 
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  Quote rai-zero Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 9:36pm
thanks
 
 
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  Quote rai-zero Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 12:57pm
thanks all
 
trying to figure out which video card?
 
these are in similar price range:
-4870 X2
-GTX 280
-Dual 260 GTX
 
How can I decide?  Do they require different mother boards or power?
 
I'm lookig to play FPS and would like the best longevity meaning a card that can be used for years to come.
 
How important is liquid cooling?  Is it possible to get by with stage 3 air cool?  Also how much maintance is involved with water cooling?
 
Lastly, is the extra year warranty worth the cost?  I plan to be using this computer for at least 4 years.


Edited by rai-zero - 03 Sep 2008 at 1:52pm
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  Quote Axel Daemon Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 3:07pm
In terms of difference with Nvidia/ATI, the only difference in motherboards is making sure one is able to do Crossfire or SLI.  If you get a motherboard that does Crossfire but buy Nvidia cards, you can use one.  But you won't be able to do SLI and vice versa.  So check to make sure about what motherboard you're getting if you're planning on adding more cards in the future.

Liquid cooling isn't a "must!" especially with only a single graphic card and such.  It will become more of a necessity if you plan on overclocking.  It'll probably become a necessity when you have multiple GPUs, like triple SLI and so on.

My own question regarding RAM is whether aside from the amount of RAM you have on your computer.  Is performance also affected by the physical quantity of RAM sticks you have?  Like does it matter if you have 2 (2x1) kits sticks to make up 4GBs of RAM.  Or a single (2x2) kit to make up 4 GBs of RAM instead.
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 3:34pm
go with dual 260 gtx

water cooling is great IMO, allows you to achieve speeds that air cooling can't, no maintenance really, you simply check it once a month and twice a year you may have to add a bit of coolant (pretty easy. but for gpu I would not get liquid cooling.

Warranty is always worth it, its been 3years and 2 month, your ram or processor dies for what ever reason, now you want that warranty or not? lol sure you do.

its worth it, if nothing else at all, you know for the next 4 years, no matter what your PC is gonna be in top shape you gonna have nothing to worry about.
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  Quote TomD Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 8:15pm
Axel wrote:
 
My own question regarding RAM is whether aside from the amount of RAM you have on your computer.  Is performance also affected by the physical quantity of RAM sticks you have?  Like does it matter if you have 2 (2x1) kits sticks to make up 4GBs of RAM.  Or a single (2x2) kit to make up 4 GBs of RAM instead.
Yes it matters. If you fill all four slots you will reduce your OC potential somewhat, at least on the 790i board. Running 4 sticks seems to cause many users grief. I am not sure if the latest Intel boards suffer the same issues.
 
It would be preferable to get a 2GBx2 kit vs. 1GBx4.
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 8:25pm
I have not head DS say anything about customers having problem with the 790i and 4 sticks of ram
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  Quote Ripper Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 9:03pm

LOL u dont give up DST4ME

"If you fill all four slots you will reduce your OC potential somewhat"
 
Nothing wrong with it that just happens to be how it is :)
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 9:57pm
I agree with 4 sticks vs 2 sticks, but I don't see how this statement is correct
"the 790i board. Running 4 sticks seems to cause many users grief"
if we are configuring people 790i with 4 sticks and we have not heard anything from DS or the customers who have gotten 790i with 4 sticks.

Edited by DST4ME - 03 Sep 2008 at 9:58pm
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  Quote Axel Daemon Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 11:29pm
Oh well whichever the circumstances This seems to fit the 2GB x 2 kit criteria, SLI-ready too lol.

Assuming after consulting with DSO on the phone there's nothing else to be recommended.

Edit: And... if a physical count does effect OC performance.  I wonder how this affects sticking a whole lotta RAM sticks when it comes to the Nehalem mobos.


Edited by Axel Daemon - 03 Sep 2008 at 11:40pm
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  Quote TomD Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 11:33pm
DST here is one article to show you the point:
 
 
Quote:
This limits the use of the board to just a pair of DIMMs when you want to really crank it up (which is the whole point of the nForce 790i), so it seriously limits what you can currently do with it.
 
Also check
 
http://www.evga.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=40 in various overclocking and freezing threads and you will see various people having issues getting a max overclock with 8GB RAM or with all 4 slots full. Certain tweaks help, but don't completely solve the issue.
 
If you want to post some actual data to back up your opinion, feel free.
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Sep 2008 at 12:07am
1. can you explain to me what " max overclock " is, if each chip is not guaranteed to OC at a certain speed?

2. I will ask this one again, why isn't DS saying anything about this issue and where are all our customers with that setup? why are we not seeing that issue here?

3. your article says:

if you’re running above 1,600MHz though the two black slots need to be specifically used.

This limits the use of the board to just a pair of DIMMs when you want to really crank it up (which is the whole point of the nForce 790i), so it seriously limits what you can currently do with it.
If you thought just 2GB of performance DDR3 isn’t enough for you, 4GB (2x2GB) kits are currently more than twice the price – they’re also limited to 1,600MHz and don’t include EPP 2.0.


so in otherwords if under 1600MHz, you don't suffer from this problem?
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  Quote TomD Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Sep 2008 at 12:09am
I am not going to argue with you.
 
Just posting my opinion and I am willing to back it up with facts and articles if needed.
 
Take it for whatever you want.
 
I don't really care. You are not worth the time.
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Sep 2008 at 12:14am
If you can answer the questions, then no need to be rude or name calling, I'm quoting your own sources.

I ask you to explain your facts and you get rude.

also is it your opinion or is it a fact, there is a difference you know.

so its your opinion thats great, but your facts say that the 2 dimm problem arises if you are gonna use ram over 1600MHz.

If what you are saying is not worth explaining clearly/backing up then maybe you should not say them

its the subject I'm interested in and sorry if things need to make sense and I don't just take your word for it, and good thing too cause you failed to mention the 1600MHz limit, which is misleading

Edited by DST4ME - 04 Sep 2008 at 12:25am
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  Quote Tyler Lowe Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Sep 2008 at 12:26am
My two bits, and I hope this helps to clear things up.
 
1. The maximum attainable speed your motherboard and CPU are capable of if there are no other limiting factors such as unstable memory, insufficient cooling or insuffcient/unstable power.
 
2. DSO sends out systems that are tested thoroughly at the speed they are overclocked to. Note that this means that in theory, we should not be hearing back from anyone with a stability problem. This does not mean that the overclock might not have been higher given a slight change to the configuration. This is a pretty widely understood concept in overclocking. 2x1GB  > 2x2GB > 4x1GB > 4x2GB. Are there circumstances under which the CPU and motherboard are simply not up to a higher clock regardless of RAM? Sure. If you want to remove potential bottleneck, however, and give yourself the best possible chance at that high clock, you go as far towards 2x1GB as your computing needs allow. If gaming is your primary use, I would do 4GB, since my thought is the performance hit from loosing a couple hundred MHz from my CPU clock is nothing compared to the hit I take in performance if a game process is constantly hard faulting.
 
3.This is a comparison between 2x2 kits and 2x1 kits. The point there, is that for speeds rated at above 1600MHz, you can only use those two slots, which means you'll be limited to 2GB, since the 2x2GB kits won't push higher than that anyway. This makes the layout a little bit pointless from a hardcore overclocker's standpoint. This really does not have much to do with 4 DIMMs being populated versus 2.
 
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 04 Sep 2008 at 12:57am
Thanks for clearing that up TL, makes lots more sense.
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