When is sound "noise"?

From the customer who says his new machine is too loud (and wants to return it)...to the (recent) magazine reviewer who states the DS machine being reviewed is "louder" than expected--both serve as examples of "surprises" and not the pleasant kind.  And, (at least from the customer's perspective) expectations that weren't met-resulting in a diminished out-of-box experience and maybe even long-term dissatisfaction with the purchase.  Trouble is...more (and more) people want a quieter machine--I know I do-- and they have no way of knowing beforehand just how "noisy" the machine they order is?

As a former reviewer of audio equipment I can say that the way the magazine reviewer judges the noise level is purely subjective. However, with certain issues, such as noise levels, that is the only valid way to qualify it. The decibel level of any noise does not tell a person whether it will be an annoyance or not. It is the sonic characteristic of that noise which will tell someone if it's bothersome. You are correct in stating that there are too many variables in what parts are noisier than others. Some combinations can actually exacerbate the problems by forming harmonic resonances.

I personally feel that all plastic, some steel cases as well as some thin walled aluminum cases can have such issues resulting in what I would consider unacceptable noise. IMO, most cases on the market today just don't adequately address noise in pcs. The current trend toward larger and larger fans to cool with sounds good since the fans are running at low rpms, thus lowering their wind noise and beat noise, however, that also requires the case to be more "open" to let air in or out which also allows internal noise to escape more directly.

As DST4ME stated, the graphics solution is where the majority of noise often comes from. There are some quiet designs that manufacturers put out to ease this issue, but any time you add extra graphics cards, the noise will increase. The exception being, if you use liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling can almost always offer quieter operation for an OC'ed system. The problem of needing more power becomes an issue, however, as most power supplies larger than 750w tend to be rather noisy.

If you wish to have a quiet pc, search the internet for quiet parts and talk to DSO about building you a custom rig. If you want the quietest, you should check out http://silentpcreview.com for some good info.

@ DST4ME  Thanks for the comment(s).  Please, take no offence (because none intended)...I only know you from your forum posts...but, I can't help but see you as the "sentinel" at the gate--the "junkyard" dawg (so to speak) for all things DS...and that's a good thing--you are an enthusiast of the first-order and I admire that!

Noise is not an issue for me, I just wear a headset.

Originally posted by DST4ME It does not matter who is review, all the people you mentioned are people that I mentioned don't know how things work. you can ask the rest of the member here, everybody that knows how things work will tell you most of your noise is coming form your GPU. I'm not interested in what people who don't even understand how things work, think what is loud and why its loud. you can go by 2 people that don't understand how things work or you can go by 100s of people that do. Personally I can school most of these reviews and reviewers so I could careless what they want to misinform the public about. also I'm not defending DS, I'm saying most of your noise comes from the GPUs, not matter where the system is from, and if the v8 is too loud form them, then tell them to go get a more quiet CPU cooler that will also do a poor job of cooling. Also as widdlecat pointed out, better cooling means more noise escaping from the case so again: bottom line as I said before, you want performance? its gonna be loud. the db rating for the all the part are with their manufacturer but you would be wasting your time cause if you think the Case is noisy then its you GPU fans. AS a side note, when you come across a review that tries to tell you that a system is loud because of v8 then run the other way. cause once you go thru the trouble of making the v8 more quiet, when you go to game or anything GPU intensive then you will see you wasted your time on the v8 cause most of your noise is coming form the GPU.

You made a believer out of me--the main cause of "noise" is from the fans in the GPUs. 

Originally posted by DST4ME well your theory is correct, now lets see what the real time product results are, so far anytime there has been a fan needed, there has been noise. as I mentioned earlier if you know how to change the heatsink on the GPU, you can just go LC on GPU and then GPU sound will not be an issue anymore, but thats if you know how to change the heatsink on the GPU.

Yup, $700 (more?) is pushing the envelope.  I can't help but wonder if the projected (new cooling) replaces the existing H20: Stage 3...or if it replaces a part of it--if a part; then some of the $1200 cost is replaced also.  But, if it's "in addition to " the current LC then (truly) the expense may be $1200 + $700.  Ouch.  Time will tell...

ya $700 dollar range but its not a Liquid cooling system.

I am one of those folks who was greatly concerned about noise levels. I even posted a request that they include noise levels of components in the pop-up specs on the order page in the future. I have had (thanks to FedEx) two different chassis and CPU cooler configurations built by DS, so I can tell you my own experience with those two. I'll also throw in my own historical experience with building my own systems and even a few purchases over MANY years.

Here is what I know: Nearly all the noise from a system comes from the fans. Some hard drives make a little noise, but it isn't constant. In my own past experience, larger fans are quieter than smaller fans. Tiny fans are shrill which makes the noise even more annoying. The difference in noise is directly related to fan RPMs. Tiny fans have to turn faster to generate the same amount of air. When fans are the same size, it is possible to have one be quieter than the other, but not by a huge amount unless you run it a lot slower. If you run it slower, the components run hotter. On cases, solid sides are quieter than windowed sides. Sides without fans are quieter than sides with fans (but trade off more heat). That's the general way things work based on over 20 years of working with PCs. Here is what happened with my DS machines.

When I was ordering my original system, I was so concerned about noise, I actually called them to get more input on which components were quieter. They told me the Zalman case fans are quieter than both the stock fans and the LED fans. They told me the Corsair 1000 power supply was quieter than the 1200 watt. They said the quietest case was the 950Si with no window. They said the V8 CPU cooler is very quiet. I made my choices based on that information.

When I got the 950Si, I noticed there was a high-pitched fan sound sticking out like a sore thumb. Now, because the CPU was running VERY hot, I could easily have assumed it was the CPU cooler making the noise. Instead, I opened the case and put my ear next to everything and the GPU fans were the culprit (just like DST4ME said). The CPU fan was maxed out, but it was still fairly quiet. The GPU fans were both running at 100% fan speed and they are tiny little shrill fans. That equals BAD noise. We're talking leaf-blower style bad. I can't imagine how bad it would have been if I had 3xSLI instead of just 2xSLI.

Anyway, I opened up the GPU utility software (EVGA Precision) and saw that the fans were set to run at 100% all the time. I changed that to AUTO so it would adjust fan speed based on load and the machine instantly became very quiet.

Well, due to shipping and heat issues, that machine was sent back and adjustments were made to my configuration to address heat. I switched to the HAF case and liquid cooling for the CPU. The HAF has really big fans that turn at very low speed, which I figured should be very quiet. When I got it back, I noticed the same loud shrill noise only worse. This time I assumed it was the GPU fans. I immediately changed the GPU fans to AUTO using the utility and the machine became just as quiet as the 950Si. It was just as quiet, despite the HAF having a side window and a side fan, which should make it noisier. Why is the HAF just as quiet as the 950Si? Simple - Those big fans on the case turn really slow and as a result, are extremely quiet.

What about the other components? The sound level on the Zalman radiator fan seems just as quiet as the V8 CPU fan was. The pump is at the bottom of the case and pretty quiet, so it is barely noticable (except it gurgles a bit when it first powers up). The fan on the power supply faces the floor, so it's quiet, too. You can hardly hear the big case fans unless you are right against them. The little bit of sound you do hear is basically a little rushing air sound. I hate excessive sound and I'm pretty happy with it.

The bottom line is, 100% of the really annoying noise on both machines was due to the leaf-blower GPU fans. More GPU fans would be even worse. Setting them to AUTO using EVGA Precision solved that instantly. That's all it took. My guess is, the reviewer heard the loud shrill noise and mistakenly assumed it was the CPU fan.

From my own experience, the reality is exactly as DST4ME said. The GPU fans are by far the loudest, most annoying part of the machine. Once the GPU fans were set to auto, both machines were only slightly audible above the sound of my ceiling fan in the room. They certainly weren't what I would call loud and I'm pretty picky. Ask anyone.

I just want to clarify that when bill said he set the fans to auto, that meant that when the PC was idle the GPU fans were not at 100% so it was not loud while idle, however when you put the GPU under load, it gets hot and the fans will now automatically go back to %100 to keep the GPU cool and thus the noise is back.

Also I want to be clear that I'm not trying to scare anybody out of LC on GPU, I just want to be clear about what can possibly happen, so if it does, you were expecting it, and expect being without your PC for 2 weeks minimum, if you are fine with all that then you are good go, I'm just pointing out worst case scenario, keep in mind you might have the best case scenario, I'm just saying know what you are getting into

Thanks for your praise of the forums Zaedoz (love that name for some reason)

The fans I bought to compliment my case, The ATCS from cooler master, are very quiet on max speeds.  I have 2 Enermax Magma fans on the back of the hard drive cage, and on the bottow intake and rear exhaust I have Noctua 120mm fans, also very quiet.  57cfm for the Noctua's, and 69cfm for the Enermax.  Not super airflow, but it compliments the 3 230mm fans very nicely, with barely any noticable noise.  The case is huge.  Lots of room for adding sound insulation (which i have on order).  Only 1 video card (gtx 285) so far along with the silverstone PSU.  The DA1000 is a modular version of the one i have, except the da1000 is modular.  Oh, and there is lots of room for cable management in that case.  I have lackluster skills in that department and i have done a fine job.

 

I When i was all working (getting a new mobo) with the GPU set at 60% fan speed, all i could hear was a low  hum mainly from the GPU.  My coolermaster V8 was set on auto though.  I have set it at 100% fan speed, bt it was not audible over the GPU.  Temps were awesome after i configured my fan using the string/ribbon method. m The bottom and drive cage fans made an arc that directly fed into the back fan area on the gpu, and also arced up towards the RAM area.  Took awhile to do, but end results are better than I hoped.  Cant wait to get board back, will post pictures at that time.  Haf is the best cooling case for air on market now, just not viable (to me anyways) for a silent solution.  As long as you dont care too much for flashy lights and such, there are several great cases to make a silent PC.

 

Also, if you want to quiet that GPU down, and are only planning to use 1 gpu, arctic cooling makes hella awesome coolers for most single GPU cards that cool about 20-30 cooler than stock, and are quieter than most high end CPU fans.  Just waiting for the newest one for the GTX 285 to be available stateside.  Maybe, depends on how much quietnes i get from the sound insulation i ordered.

Hope that helps a bit, let me know if any more info is needed.  Im out, back to work!

 

Thermaltake is currently working on a cooler similar to what you are describing.  I know DST4ME is all about getting one when they come out.  Its actually here on this site somewhere   I am sure DST will chime in with the link.  I think its just for CPU though, not really sure.

Ya I'm waiting for the RCB400 but its forum has been seeming a bit fishy and no update on it either, but I'm still waiting and hopping.

but if does do what it says its gonna be great for a good price.

the RCB400 does only one thing so if you wanted the cpu and gpu you need 2 x RCB400 and that requiers 8 optical bays.

lol well I don't have 8 to spare anyways, maybe 4 for the CPU but thats about it

Yes I'm waiting but if a good part comes out that can enhance my performance I will upgrade to it, this was my original dilemma since my LC system is all customized I was not sure if I should spend that much money in the LC if I'm going to try the rcb400, but then I figured I go all out on the LC, and then wait and see how the rcb400 does, then if its worth it, I will upgrade to it, why not

outside parts are OK but then you have zero mobility and a pain to move the PC, the whole reason everybody started to mount the rad in the box was to be more mobile friendly. I think getting a better case with more room and airflow is a better choice then moving stuff out and if we gonna move anything out it would be the rad first before anything else.

I'm still not final about all parts and details, not sure if all will work together, once I figure all of that out and order I will post the parts I got that could work together, right now basically, looking at a triple GTX rad, gtz heatsink, not sure about the pump yet, going with 3 295 for folding, etcc etc.

Edited by DST4ME - 15 Apr 2009 at 2:25pm

lol I was suppose to get my i7 laster November but then I waited for the 295 to come out, this was must for my folding, so it came out in mid Jan, the I said why not wait another month for the classified and now I'm waiting for 17 975, once its out I'm not waiting for anything else. the rest of stuff that will come out I will just upgrade to later.

ya those 3 295s will put out some heat, I'm contemplating what to do with the side fan.

you can watch this video for rcb400 its got 2 of them in 1 system

Edited by DST4ME - 15 Apr 2009 at 2:57pm

Damn your story does sound very much like mine, I too have a few Dell system but I have had a few other builders also, like FNW, at the end I wanted a system that had:

quality
performance
upgradable
great customer svc

I kept looking just like you, I wanted full customization so I stayed away from companies that did not have full customization and one by one each had something wrong, mainly quality, then I found DS, been here for a year and have seen first hand how they take care of their customers, so I just been here since, its a great place, I mean any place that allows me for example to tell a customer "don't' get your monitor here, newegg will have better prices", is one hack of a place, I mean I can speak my mind about parts and point out there routes for customers and DS has no problem with it, this tells me that they truly want the best for their customers, thats a type of place I can get behind I don't know any other builder that has this level of service and quality and allows us to be open.

I think Alex does a great job with this forum and its guidelines, I am seriously impressed which is why I stayed

I have been looking at xprssar's forum but it seems a little weired, can't register and they don't respond to my emails either and some of the posts in their forum is obviously from their own team. but I'm still waiting to see what happens, you never know.

been with folding at home since 2003 or 2004, honestly I forget

Edited by DST4ME - 16 Apr 2009 at 2:37pm

We're all waiting for DST4ME to finally get his system ordered. At one point, somebody suggested he might be a tech support BOT. 

I'm actually waiting to see how he likes that cooling system once he gets it. I might swap out my LC for it, if it works really well with no fuss. I like the zero maintenance of it plus the extra cooling power. I'm very worried about condensation though, so I'll wait and let DST4 take the risk first.

Alex rocks! He and the tech guys took great care of me and my problems. Actually everyone on the forums rocks! Good group here.

I saw somebody mentioned the electricity used by these systems. Here's my suggestion. Just replace all of your bulbs with CFL bulbs to offset the cost of running your new system. Or sit in the dark. This system is worth it!